The 'newborn - sleep nightmare' continuation thread, Cosmosis, count, emo etc. Still a sleep nightmare?

[Bumperlicious]

Just thought I'd catch up with all of you from the last thread to see if now we've moved on from the newborn stage things are any better?

Dd2 is nearly 5 months and sleep is still hit and miss. She is not good at sleeping when out and about so mornings are either spent at home or I choose to socialise and spend the rest of the day fighting to get her to sleep.

She still rarely goes down in the evening despite me trying for 1.5 hours. Eventually goes down 11.30ish and still often wakes twice a night

Am knackered, no end in sight. How's everyone else doing?

Pidgin we're trying BLW so gave DS some sticks of carrot and banana. It was cute as hell! He really went for it and gamely sucked away, especially the banana - I think he might have swallowed some of it - will await the next poo with interest

DH told his mum about it on the phone and she was a bit apparently. Am expecting to have to deflect a lot of comments about needing to 'fill him up' etc ... I'm sure our older relatives will be thinking we're a pair of mad old hippie weirdos, "no wonder that baby doesn't sleep", etc etc ...

DS has just slept from 6.45pm to 8.45pm! I can't remember the last time he slept more than 45 mins from the first time he went to sleep. I also managed to settle him relatively quickly with the cuddle-in-the-cot method. I'm trying not to get too excited as it may just be a blip and who knows what the night will bring but at least it's a step in the right direction. I'll probably spend the next few weeks trying to recreate today trying to get it to work again.
Glad your weaning was fun count. I was a bit ignorant about the ins and outs of BLW until recently. I've started on the purees but think I will try and do some more BL stuff as we go on. I've been looking at vidoes on youtube and being amazed by 6 month old babies chomping on a chicken leg!
I caught a little of comic relief last night as well salander. I know it shouldn't be the case but I found the sections on ill and starving children a lot harder to watch since becoming a mum. Just made me so glad that DS is well and has a happy little life.

Returning to this thread after a horrendous bout of illnesses, including ds2 (4.5 months) having urine infection and then a virus. He has been held a lot and had a lot of comfort feeding and as a result his sleep is worse than ever. Tends to stay asleep in the evening for which I am hugely grateful, but after that is unsettled from midnight till around 4, wanting to feed every hour or more, waking up when put down etc. Have been sleeping with him on my lap which is not only dangerous but has left me with terrible stiff neck.

Want to start sleep training again (going to try comforting in cot) but he still has a bad cough as a result of the virus so not sure I can do it yet. Off for a few days holiday wednesday - looking forward to it but also dreading further sleep disruption!

Bah. Of course I jinxed things by posting and we had am awful night. Really thinking a sleep consultant might be the way forward as our confidence is at rob bottom. I did learn last night though that putting a radio on in ds' room in the middle of the night quietly doesn't help him settle.... I thought the noise might soothe him and help him get back to sleep. It did calm him but so that by the time he woke me crying it was because he was bored and wide awake. Oh well.

ew had a horrendous night as I mad the mistake of a large coke just before bedtime - I think I had about 2 hours sleep. Poor boy was just wired, he obviously takes after his dad in the affrected by caffiene front.

However, hsving read the sad news about Edgars little boy I will man up and cuddle my boy very tight.

ew = we

Sorry about all the illness fromhere - welcome back and hope everyone's better now. Sorry also about your nights judy and Cosmosis.

Last night was OK actually - DS fell asleep at 7ish, slept until 10:45 and only woke once between 12 and 6. He has also started taking a long morning nap - about 1hr45-2hrs. This is entirely random, but he's done it several days running now. Could it be he is on his best behaviour because we're speaking to the sleep consultant later?

ooh count that sounds like bliss!

fromhere - sorry - forgot to say welcome back. Sounds like you had a tough time.
Count - I am super-curious as to how it went with Andrea Grace today? Any words of wisdom you can share? Sounds like you are really making progress on your own. Maybe it is committing to spend money on the problem which helps? At one point I thought DS would sleep better when I ran out of breast pads as over xmas he'd always do a longer stretch when I forgot to wear them and I'd wake up anyway having leaked on the bed. I have long given up wearing them now....
In a bid to be positive though DS is so much easier to settle at the moment. I basically put him in the cot, give him the dummy and then let him hold my hands and stroke his head a little and he falls asleep. Seems amazing compared to where we were before. Just need to get him to stay that way now! I've been sat in his room with my hand on his chest for the last 2 hours so will see if that helps. Maybe I should stay in all night a few times? Hope everyone is getting on ok.

Hello! Just got off the phone with Andrea and going to get ready for bed now but will update later. We have a plan, but I think it's going to be tough!

She is lovely though, and so sympathetic. V supportive of bfing too, and of BLW, which was a nice surprise - I was dreading her going off on one about that and telling me to stuff DS full of baby rice ...

I'll be really interested to hear how you go, Count. We're seeing our sleep consultant on Friday morning and are at the moment filling in our sleep diary. Typically, DS's sleep hasn't been that bad since we've been filling it in! I still think we need some strategies to try to stop the feeding to sleep thing though. Judy settling DS in his cot sounds as though it's going really well, you should be proud of yourself for that!

Ooh count please tell all so we can get the same advice for free help you through it.

I seem to have slipped into my old bad habits of feeding at every squeak in the night again, sleep is totally gone to pot. I am back at work in 2 weeks and just no idea how I am going to cope.

blonde it's almost like they can sense something's afoot! Mind you, DS was back to the two-hourly nonsense last night ...

So the plan basically has two elements: firstly, getting DS to be able to fall asleep without one of us in the room. We made that progression from rocking to sleep to falling asleep in the cot, but it's not stopped him waking at night because he still can't settle himself at all when he wakes. At the moment we sit with a hand on his tummy until he goes off, and I wonder if he's waking thinking, "ooh, where's Mummy? She was here a moment ago" and crying out for me to come back. My response has almost always been to feed him, which means he won't settle without a feed - so the other bit of the plan is to gradually wean him off the night feeds.

So we'll be:

1. altering bedtime routine so he has a story between feeding and being put in his cot, to completely break the association between milk and sleep
2. getting him to fall asleep without us in the room using a combo of rapid return (basically CC but keeping to v short intervals - 30 seconds - and not lengthening them, plus without all the avoiding eye contact etc - we can engage with him, talk to him soothingly etc) and gradual withdrawal (sitting by cot without touching him). So it'll be 10 entrances and exits followed by sitting next to the cot, then 20, etc, until he gets used to falling asleep without us in the room
3. gradually weaning off the night feeds by shortening the duration of the feeds over about three weeks
4. practising going to sleep unassisted for the first nap of the day only, using the method above (rapid return/gradual withdrawal) - when he's mastered that, extend to the other nap(s).

The plan originally proposed was a bit tougher than this (weaning off night feeds by this weekend - eeek! - and just doing rapid return without the gradual withdrawal) but I got cold feet overnight and to her great credit, Andrea responded immediately this morning with this more gradual version. I felt like as it was, we were basically doing 'posh controlled crying' and I wouldn't be able not to feed DS if I suspected he was hungry. So this will take longer but I feel more comfortable with it, although it's still going to be really, really hard. But as narmada said in an earlier post, some babies just don't respond to the gentler methods and there's always going to be some crying involved.

I got a letter yesterday saying I had been referred for 'psychological help' (!) so my GP must have diagnosed PND. So I do need to just grit my teeth and get on with this because I know I will feel less depressed if I can improve DS's sleep.

Sorry for long ramble ... !

Thaks for the info count - not a ramble at all. With the rapid return, how long do you stay on the return bit?
I'm seeing the nursery nurse the HV is sending today about it all so will see what she says and then consider a consultant. Had rubbish night and brought DS into our bed again at 1.30am which is becoming a bit of a habit. I think our situation is quite similiar to you count though I probably need to wean him off the dummy as well as feeding in the night.
Hope you're good nights continue beingblonde and sorry it's still rubbish for you cos.

Hi judy - with the rapid return bit you only stay for 10 seconds or so.

Good luck count! We didn't ever get to the weaning off night feeds bit as dd did it herself once she was in the new routine with the feed to sleep association, so it might be much easier than you think.

My dh and I were talking about the methods we had used and I was saying I felt a bit bad coz dd had had to cry a few times (with me next to her) and he pointed out that she used to cry a lot more doing it our old way when we went to her every time.

Thanks count and good luck tonight! Hope you see some fast results.

I had the nursery nurse round today and she was really understanding and helpful. I think she is associated with the sleep clinic here and the HV team. In a way I was a little disappointed by what she said - basically that she would recommend riding it out for a while longer and just getting through as we could (she told me to not worry about taking DS into bed with me if it meant I got more sleep) and that in a month or so we could work up to sleep training. This would be CC but the way they recommend doing it is that you leave the room for as long as you feel comfortable and it was ok if this was 30 s. You then went in and comforted them with as little interaction as possible ( not sure how this works) and then leave and repeat. She said there was no timing and you just left them long as you felt was ok and that they normally recommended going in when the cries escalated to the next level. You are meant to be able to calm them when you go in but not sure this would work with DS. I think if we decide to go down that route she would go through it more with us. She suggested I have more of a daytime routine and reinforce the bedtime routine before naps. She also said I should stop reading about sleep and obsessing about it and go out in the day without worrying how it affected DS's naps (so have a routine but not too strict I think). I wasn't expecting much so was quite surprised - it just helped to talk about it again.

I think DH and I need to talk about whether we can keep going or if we need a bit more direction from a consultant. The NN basically said to come up with a routine and stick to it rather than telling me what I should be doing.

Glad they were sympathetic, judy, but can see why you're a bit nonplussed. Routine is all very well, but when you find it hard getting your baby to fall asleep in the first place (as we do) it's not easy. And 'not obsessing' about DS's naps has for me resulted in an inconsolable, screaming, overtired baby too many times. It's only now he's 6 months (it's his half birthday tomorrow :)) that he can go for two hours between sleeps without having a total meltdown.

V nervous about tonight. Been freaking out all day. Know I have to do it though.

We've got to a point where getting her to sleep isn't too bad (not the hour jiggling or crying it used to be). Our main one if her sleeping for more than 2 hours at a time. We're now going 4 hours between the first night feed, however it's good that's she's going 2 hours now instead of a few weeks ago where it 60-90mins

also at 12 months, we still put her down if she's been awake 2 hours (she needs it) just now she can sleep an hour instead of 30mins

Good luck Count. You can do it - you are doing a loving, caring thing for your baby and he will still smile at you in the morning! This is what I am telling myself because I think we are going to do something similar soon, maybe this weekend. We had the worst ever night last night and I am reaching close to breaking point. I am so tired. I gave DS to DH at 5 this morning in desperation so I could get some sleep, and then lay there totally unable to go to sleep myself. Painful.

He's only 19 weeks this weekend though - is he too young for PUPD or rapid return to work? I just don't know what else we can do and I fear drastic action may be called for...

Hope everyone has a good night tonight.

I think he's ok for pupd Pidgin, I think they say that shouldn't be under 3mo.

Thanks Cosmosis - I guess we'll have to try it. I sort of think the picking up might br more confusing to him if I don't feed him. With CC, do you not pick them up? I know what you mean about falling back into bad habits - I will do anything to get sleep these days, I need someone to sleep train me, never mind DS. Hope you are having a better night.

Well, the rapid return thing was hideous and we ended up abandoning it because DS (and I) got far too upset. Not sure how we progress from there but the falling asleep unassisted thing is going to have to be much more gradual. It made me realise that CC (or anything similar) is not an option for us, as I have always suspected. I feel horribly guilty for having even tried this and ignoring my instincts that it would never work with a baby like DS.

After receiving my slightly hysterical email, Andrea still advised carrying on with the shortened feeds. That part has gone OK: DS has complained after both 10-minute feeds, but has been easily distracted by a cuddle and has settled easily in his cot from awake, even though he was grumbling when I put him down the second time. Not sure how he'll respond to the feeds getting any shorter though.

count :( it took us until 9 months to get her to go to sleep unassisted. I realise that isn't much comfort. What would work one week, wouldn't the next.

Looking back we were waiting until we got tired cues which by then were too late.