newborn sleep nightmare, officially desperate

[ExistentialistCat]

2 week-old DD2 just won't settle in her crib at night at all. She'll sleep in her moses basket during the day quite happily, though. I've tried all the usual tricks (warming the mattress, swaddling, making a little nest out of a rolled-up blanket etc etc etc). We end up co-sleeping out of necessity but I don't want to, I don't get any sleep like that, and I'm not sure it's safe because DH and I are so extremely dopey now.

I'm averaging 2 hours sleep a night (not all in one chunk) and I just don't know how I can continue like this. I also have a 15 month-old DD1 and it's so unfair on her that I'm a permanently bf-ing zombie during the day.

Does all this settle on its own at the magic 6 week mark or is there something we could do to encourage DD2 to sleep in her crib? How do I survive the next 4 weeks? How much of an influence might bf-ing have, and could a night time bottle of formula help (I ff DD1 and don't remember the sleep issues being quite this bad in the early weeks)?

Oh & no idea how to cope with the clocks!

Hope you got a bath and some sleep, Bump!

We had a night from hell. DD2 slept from 11 until 4, which was great, but DD1 was up with nonspecific screaming every half an hour, all night! Now DD2 has been awake since 8.30 this morning and is crying with tiredness in the sling. I've had enough . She's 6 weeks old tomorrow, things are supposed to be getting easier!

Tried expressing earlier but had to abandon it to actually feed DD2. How are you supposed to squeeze it into ceaseless feeding on demand?!

Sorry you are having such a tough time ec. I haven't even found the time to wash my pump so I can start expressing. & dd has wanted feeding non-stop wont be put down How long do these growth spurts last?

Oh dear. After feeling v smug re cranial osteopathy, we had 2nd session on Saturday and DS has been his usual screaming, insomniac self ever since. Worse, I have this weird sensation in my knee from all the rocking, like my kneecap's about to pop off, and our usual strategies - white noise, walking, shushing etc - aren't working anymore. Have resorted to feeding to sleep in our bed - as if I hadn't created enough rods for my own back!!

Could this be another growth spurt? He is 5 weeks and 4 days now.

Also, does anyone else feel completely helpless when they hear 'experts' going "you have to put them down awake so they learn to go to sleep alone in their own beds, or you'll be rocking them to sleep until they're 30" etc etc . What exactly do they suggest we do - leave them in their moses basket screaming and thrashing around? Have tried PU/PD - in our house it would be called PU/WTHFASTS/PD/R (pick up/wait two hours for agonised screaming to subside/put down/repeat).

Oh dear count. If it helps I really think weeks 5-6 are really bad weeks for feeding/clinginess & not sleeping. As for putting down down awake - ha! I can barely put her down asleep! Dr sears has a lot more baby friendly stuff to say on the matter. He has a really good book on sleep & a website. Can't remember the reasoning but he said of course babies don't go down awake. There was an explanation but I can't remember it.

Sorry about your knee. I've also done mine in trying to get off the sofa with a sleeping baby in my arms & no leverage. I think your ligaments are still soft from pregnancy so prone to injury.

Oh dear, Count, what a disappointment. Although it does reassure my inner sceptic somewhat... I too had cranial osetopathy sessions for DD1 but found it all rather weird and didn't buy the practitioner's rationale for the treatment (if you could really realign the flow of cerebrospinal fluid with such a light touch, wouldn't enything like brushing your hair or putting on a hat risk putting it out of wonk again?). Still, I was ready to try anything!

I also fret about the putting them down awake thing and fully second barely being able to put them down asleep! We ended up taking it in turns to sleep with DD on us again last night. I really don't want to do this but at least we got some sleep.

Dr Sears has some good points but I start to hyperventilate every time I dip into the attachment parenting book. I need some breathing space for myself! So now guilt/worry works both ways: I manage to worry simultaneously that I'm teaching DD bad habits by holding her too much, and that I'm not being a properly attached parent because I don't hold her enough.

If there were one thing I could change about this motherhood experience, it'd be to erase all memory of every parenting book I've ever read and give myself some sort of selective dyslexia that would make it impossible ever to read another one.

Oh yes ec, I skip over the bits where he raves about co-sleeping.

Anyone else feel like they are just coping, and very little else. I feel like we are just trying to survive the day at the moment.

Bump, thank you so much, have just googled Dr Sears' 'five reasons why a high-needs child sleeps differently' and feel a whole lot better. He doesn't offer any solutions that we haven't already tried but at least we know we're doing the right thing by just trying to meet his needs and make him as happy and comfortable as possible rather than trying to 'make' him self-settle and go into a routine.

Oh crikey yes, Cat, I am so with you on the parenting book dyslexia. The one that has caused me the most guilt and perturbation is actually the bloody Baby Whisperer. It was recommended to me as a softer, gentler alternative to Gina Ford but I find her tone really strident and inflexible. It made me feel like such a bad mother that I rock DS to sleep and that I am 'getting him into bad habits' etc. For someone who claims to know about all the different types of babies (I guess DS falls into her 'Spirited' category) she shows an astonishing ignorance of the fact that some babies are just physically incapable of self-settling . It was only when I came on MN that I realised it wasn't my fault or anything I was doing, that some babies are just like that. She doesn't seem to have considered that babies can't self-settle because that's just the way they are, and that it's not the parents causing a problem, it's just them adapting to their baby's temperament and doing whatever it takes to make them happy/get them to sleep etc.

Dr Sears is a bit lentil-weaving but I have surprised myself with how 'huggy' a parent I've turned out to be. Though I never thought I'd co-sleep and we've ended up doing just that the last couple of nights. It's all about survival at this stage, isn't it!

We're going to try one last session of CO- still v sceptical but feel like we don't have much to lose - apart from 40 quid, ha ha.

Dd1 had dummies for 2.5 years so she never learnt to self settle. You can imagine how tough it was when we made her give them up. Yet here we are and she goes to bed fine (well she did until dd2 came along but that is a whole other issue). Anyway, point is it'll all be fine. Just do what you can to get through.

Regarding the parenting books, I remember reading the "baby whisperer" with DD1 and not finding it helpful. I have picked up my Gina Ford book again this time around - mainly to remind myself how to try to structure feeds and our day to give us the best chance of baby getting some more sleep at night. Unfortunatley she doesn't mention the flailing arms sensation and I really am not about to start waking up a baby who is finally asleep at 7am or any other time at present. Nor have my toast and tea at a time prescribed by her.... Anyway....!

Look to be honest I am clutching at straws here - baby is not going to settle easily until she grows out of the flailing arms, full stop! I am sure she will grow out of it eventually but in the meantime have somewhat resigned myself to the nightly carry on. I have a horrible feeling that the "magic six week" age will come and go with no improvement!!

DS has been zonked for nearly 3 hours now. DH and I have been taking it in turns to let him sleep on us. Instead of fretting about 'bad habits' and feeling like I need to put him in his Moses basket, I'm trying to relax, enjoy the cuddle and be relieved that the poor little chap is finally getting some rest. Have resigned myself to the fact that a Proper Bedtime is some way off.

I would just like to go an hour without feeding. Hell, right now I'd like to go 10 minutes without feeding.

Emo wish I had some advice for you. Does she really not like being swaddled? Could you just do an under arm swaddle?

Yikes Bump, I remember the evening cluster-feeding from a few weeks ago. It's really tough. I hope you've got some good DVD box sets on the go.

Emo, sympathise on the flailing arms front. We bought DS one of those velcro swaddling blankets but the little Houdini got wise to it and he now manages to escape from it almost every time. Or if we manage to get him wrapped up tight he just waves his legs around like a demented mermaid.

The only decent tip I got from the Baby Whisperer is to put a sock under your boob if you have large baps and your DC ends up in an awkward position whilst feeding. (I prefer a rolled-up muslin - I do have some standards). I hereby bequeath this tip to Mumsnetters to save them having to buy the book and end up feeling as rubbish about their parenting skills as I did.

We use miracle blanket (from amazon) for swaddling. It's really good.

I have tried swaddling but she really does not seem to like it i.e. screams even more and yes, CountBapula is something of a houdini too! Also have been told not to swaddle her bottom half because there is a small chance she has hip problems. Bumperlicious the feeding sounds relentless - I have no advice to offer but hope it get better soon - it must be utterly exhausting and dare I say a little frustrating at times.

Re flailing arms [whispers] - I know it's illegal these days, but we got so desperate with DD1 that we - gasp! - put her down on her front. It made a huge difference, even though I never quite shook off the feeling that I was doing something dangerous.

Last night, I settled down to an evening of cluster feeding. TV and novel at the ready. Snacks, drink, fire lit. Was almost looking forward to it. DD had one big feed and then zonked out at 6. Didn't wake until we decided to risk going to bed at 10. And then it took me 3 hours to feed and settle her down again!! Grrrr... Moral of the story: Must sleep when they sleep!

Interesting what people have said about Baby Whisperer. I was thinking of buying that as my next Book of Answers. Might not bother now, especially since I now know about socks and breastfeeding!

Having quite a rough time as DD1 is really fractious day and night at the moment (Teeth? - at 16 months she only has 4! Or incubating chicken pox? - just played with pox-ridden frends...). It's so lovely to have this thread as respite!

About to try feeding DD2 expressed milk in a bottle. Keep your fingers crossed for me!

Good luck with the bottle EC. I've just started expressing but haven't yet given a bottle - bit scared stupidly! To be honest I'm not sure I even need dh to do a feed at the moment. DD2 is still going 6 or 7 hours at night but only after several hours of cluster feeding. I worry that if she doesn't do the cluster feeding she won't go as long which will sort of defeat the object. And if he were to do the morning one I'd probably wake up with rock hard boobs anyway. Going to freeze the EBM for now though.

I know the feeling about the sleep though. I am constantly trying to second guess DD. It's gutting when you miss a good sleep!

I did think about the front thing Emo, on their back they have a stronger startle reflex. If you did want to persevere with the swaddling you can tuck the blanket over the arms and under the back, that just swaddles the arms and not the body. It's good for 'handy' babies when they are feeding.

We've had near constant feeding the past couple of days. Plus DD no longer sleeps anywhere but on me during the day after doing so beautifully for the first two weeks. Anyone got any tips that don't involve wearing a sling?!

Anyone else keep falling out with their DH's?

I'm just being hyper sensitive but any time he complains about being at work, doing the housework (which he does fair play to him) or about being tired etc. I just want to rip his head off. but he (quite rightly) points out that I am allowed to complain about bfing etc. He knows the other stuff is his job, doesn't mean he has to like it. He has a point. i still want to punch him in the face though sometimes.

Blimey! DS just slept from 11.30 til 6am! Bit of a shock having only ever managed 2-3 hour stretches, and that on a good night. He was a really happy little chap yesterday as well, despite only wanting to sleep on me.

Now we just need to work out how he managed it so we can recreate it. I did feed him for about an hour and a half at 10pm, and DH managed to get him in a really tight swaddle. Also he reaches the magic 6-week mark tomorrow.

Of course I didn't get a full night's sleep because I kept getting up to see why he hadn't woken. In fact, he did wake around 3am and started grunting, but by the time I got up and over to his basket, he'd gone back to sleep. He's NEVER done that before.

It'll probably just be a one-off but I'm grateful DH and I got a decent rest for once. How were your nights, ladies?

EC, re Baby Whisperer, there is some useful stuff on overtiredness/overstimulation, but nothing you wouldn't find on MN. My issue with it is that if you don't have a baby that self-settles, she not only has very little in the way of answers, she also bangs on about bad habits and blames you, the parent, for fostering them. She is also totally against feeding on demand, which she says makes for a 'demanding baby' .

Coundbapula that is fabulous! DD did karate until midnight, eventually settling when I put her on the bed next to me in her sleeping bag (not under duvet etc) - she slept until 3am and then woke at 6am and didn't really settle properly after that. So I suppose it could be worse. The karate seems to die down eventually. She hasn't been very settled for the last 24 hours overall.

re front sleeping, I think that would work but I am too scared to do it because of the cot death advice. It's very tempting though!

Hope all other posters are well and the fog of sleep deprivation isn't too bad today. I have days when I feel happy and days when I feel sad and I am sure it is down to tiredness and not PND or anything. Don't want to wish away the newborn stage but can't wait for more sleep one day.....

Sleep deprivation not too bad today. just pissed off that i can't ever put this baby down. if she isn't feeding or sleeping on me she just screams like i am torturing her.

feeling a bit light headed today and have a lumpy breast. hoping it's not mastitis.

wish i had some advice for you emo. have you tried starting a thread asking for advice?

Emo have you seen this thread?

Bump, are you actually me?! I'm also finding it hard work not to be able to put DD2 down. She only sleeps on me during the day. Basket, pram, car, bouncer, swinging bouncer - no way. The only respite I get is when I invite broody friends round and dump DD2 on them while I roll around with DD1!

Also relate to getting grumpy with DH. I know how hard he works and he does do a lot around the house etc etc but it's so hard not to get envious of coffee breaks and unaccompanied loo breaks and the sense that there is a time when work stops!

I've also had a lumpy breast since last night and can't seem to shift it - have started a thread about it in feeding.

Emo, I was going to send a link to that thread as well. I do hope you find a solution that works for you all.

Thank you so much for the link to that thread. I am going to give front sleeping a go tonight - last night was an absolute horror, DD awake from 9pm to 3am , tired out but couldn't settle because of this bl**dy flailing arms reflex. I am now desperate - I was crying myself at one point and ashamed to say I told her to shut up - how comforting.

Things always seem a bit better in the morning, and my husband is doing the night shift on Friday so I am very much looking forward to a night in the spare room (where he normally sleeps at present - no point in us both getting no sleep, does wonders for our relationship...not....anyway that's another thread!!!)

I can empathise with the feeling grumpy towards DH - in fact I am sometimes envious that he is getting to sleep in the spare room and go to work - I would like to do that but of course far too early to leave baby (5 weeks old) and also it would be a shame to go through this newborn sleep hell and then not have any time to enjoy her once this passes (which yet again I have to remind myself, it will)

Hope everyone has a better day....one day it will get better!!!!!!