Would you ban smacking? Take our two-question-takes-less-than-10-seconds poll (and be entered into this week's comp)

[carriemumsnet]

Tomorrow Parliament will debate whether to outlaw smacking completely. The current law allows parents (and some carers) to discipline children using "reasonable punishment" but outlaws punishment that leaves physical marks or causes mental harm. The last attempt to impose a full ban on smacking was defeated in 2004 .

We've put together a quick (and we mean quick) two question poll to see what Mumsnetters think about this and will hopefully be able to make your views known to the world first thing tomorrow.

For more info on the story click here

Everyone who takes part in the poll will be entered into this week's competitions to win one of 3 sets of Walker picture books worth £100 each, a week's luxury ski accommodation in France or one of 4 Fisher-Price doll and stroller sets. For more info on comp prizes click here

And just in case you need the poll link again it's here

Once you've done the poll please add your views on the subject here (as if mumsnetters need any encouragement to make their views known ).

Thanks

MNHQ

We chose not to smack our DS and we have found other ways to discipline him time out etc. and in all honesty I find the thought of hitting him horrendous. BUT, I would not be in favour of an all out ban.

x

children are NOT adults and are not treated as such. I did not expect young children to feed and clothe themselves, I was responsible for them. I am also responsible for keeping them safe and bringing them up to behave themselves. It is not anyone else's business to interfere in that unless there is obvious sign of harm. Who has evidence that smacking a child is damaging to them? Beating a child obviously is and, I repeat, we have laws that are more than adequate to deal with that.

Personally I see lots of problems with some children whose parents would not dream of smacking them. It is not my business - unless they ask - to tell these parents that if they don't smack they need to teach their child in some other way. Nor is it my business to tell them that shouting at their child and demeaning them is abuse and is detroying that child. But once you start criminalising behaviour let's make every type of parenting I disagree with illegal. Doesn't matter if I have any evidence that it is damaging or not - I don't like it, I don't want to do it and so I'll stop anyone else doing it.

Those who want to see a law passed are saying my view of parenting is correct and must be imposed on you against your will.

Oh Tatt, there is abundant evidence that living under threat of violence is harmful. That's a no-brainer.

And no one is saying that at all. When the poll comes in I think you might be suprised by the amount of people who are in favour of the ban have also smacked.

I have hit out in self defence before against my elder child, who is very strong

Or to stop him continuing extremely dangerous behaviour

I don't believe he had the self control or reason to be handled any other way. I never intended to smack my children, ever, at all, but surprisingly I did use it as a way of controlling him after many non violent attempts failed.

The point is not how to manage the behaviour but how to prevent it initially.

If I had been in a better place mentally and able to give himmore attention, had not had my own problems preoccupying me, so that his behaviour became unruly and uncontrolled, I believe it would never have got to that point.

I don't think the smacking denoted the failure as such
I think the need for it did.

No comment on whether banning is a good idea, without relevant support and other input to parents in my, or a worse, situation. I had no idea what to do when my child was acting like a maniac.

I certainly never enjoyed smacking him and have cried afterwards, in fact I still feel throroughly ashamed that it ever happened. Now he is 5 he is much more amenable to reason, thank God.

"threat of violence" from someone who smacks their child's hand away from a fire -that is ridiculous.

I am unhappy with a government that attempts to legislate how we should act, without putting support in place that would lessen the risk of that behaviour happening in the first place.

personally I think it's totally nuts and a waste of legislative time and just another thing that's impossible to police and which will not change behaviour one little bit.

having said that, I have never hit my child and hope I never will, and wouldn't want it to happen to her or to anyone else, ever. but banning it won't stop it happening.

Done, books please if I win.

Very interesting debate. I think that the idea of achieving clarity that hitting a child is simply wrong, just like hitting an adult is wrong, is very attractive, but I am not convinced that this is what would be achieved. There would still be lots of grey areas. Firstly I would like to know what exactly they are considering banning. What exactly is a smack? Can it be defined in law and how is it differentiated from a slap or an affectionate pat on the bum (given that any action that leaves a mark is already banned)?

If smacking is banned what about all the other behaviours that would constitute assault if you did them to an adult (grabbing, shaking, shouting, intimidating behaviour, threat of violence, physical restraint)? Should they be banned too? If so who decides what is a reasonable response to a child doing something dangerous in terms of telling them off? My little one does sometimes cry when I say no - so presumably he does feel threatened (the adult definition of assault) - should that be banned?

Also, I believe there are a number of instances when it is accepted in law that you have the right to use force against another adult (self defence, to prevent harm to others) - so if my child hits me how big does he have to be for me to have the right of self defence, or the right to defend another child? 10? 12? 15? 18? I ask because I know a few 14 year old boys who are bigger and stronger than me - are they still children?

Surely wherever you draw the line there will be grey areas and, as I think others have said, this should be far more about encouraging parents to understand what is a reasonable and responsible way to provide boundaries and discipline their children than bringing the arm of the law to bear.

banning is pointless

Hypothetically - I lose my rag and smack DS one in a blue moon and its very wrong and he learns nothing and I feels like shit. How is this going to be improved by someone reporting me and potentially having a criminal record/child portection order or whatever.

people who systematically smack to discipline their children who may be causing the child harm should be adqequately covered under existing laws.

Education over legislation.

can I have the skiing holiday wihtout the skiing?

done the survey

ban smacking.
there's no place for it.

I think there already is zero tolerance in society for any form of ohysical violence towards another person - except for smacking your kids. And whilst I would hate to see the law used against somebody like me (who once instinctively smacked dd when she was 2 and headbutted me whilst I was calmly telling her off for pushing ds) I do think that the law would gradually bring about a change in attitude and not allow people who are abusive to their children to pretend that they aren't being.

I also think smacking can escalate - I know that the only reason I have such a strong no smacking philosophy is because if I allow myself to smack at all, I wouldn't be able to not smack at times when I lose my temper. A blanket ban is the only thing that works for me and a legal ban might have that same effect for other people

Absolutely ban it. It's not allowed for adults, and we have to manage with the grey areas that throws up, so it shouldn't be allowed for children. 100% ban and that means private schools and everywhere else as well.

I think we in the UK really do have a problem with according respect to children. It's totally beyond me how it is illegal to strike an adult but not a child. And the "leaving a mark" thing is totally stupid as all children are different, have different sensitivity, different skin colour etc.

The law should of course be interpreted sensibly so that people don't get a record for one-off rag losing, just a warning if they are arrested - which of course they almost always wouldn't be. But the fact of it being illegal would make us all more aware and try to resist it harder. The fact that hitting children is legalised gives us all the wrong baseline IMO.

People are falling down the slippery slope too quickly here!

The police aren't idiots. We cannot being to have a serious debate about this unless we begin from the position that the police are not maniacs and won't be arresting parents willy nilly like jobsworth robots.

The law will ne there to send a massage to all parents to find other strategies than smacking - but crucially it will tell those that smack their children every dau or every week that it is unacceptable and if they continue on such a course, noit addressing their shortcomings as a parent, they may get into real troubel for it.

I also suspect it will get more women suffering from PND and PMT into their GP's surgeries to getr tyreatment to manage these symtoms and improve their, and their lids lives, immeasuably.

We need to stop thinking about this on a personal level and think about the greater good it could do.

Education is not working. That is why this step is alwasy being debated, because every initiative to raise awareness fails and while we all whinge about police resources and our personal automony kids are being beaten every day and threads started on here asking 'should I have called the police' when someone see's a chuld being vicioulsy hit in the street.

I'm so sick and tired of being told how to parent my child and this culture of monitoring and assessing and looking over parents shoulders the whole time. Did anyone see the NSPCC supplement about emotional abuse in The Guardian yesterday? I can't find a link to it but the underlying assumption seemed to be that schools should be monitoring children constantly for signs of emotional abuse, and that parents are all basically guilty.

How on earth can one parent effectively in this kind of Big Brother culture?

I am totally against smacking, I have smacked DS once and felt so awful about doing it and hope I never do it again, but as previous posters have said, laws like this do not prevent real and serious abuse of children - all they do is criminalise parents who are trying to do the best they can and have just lost their rag once in a while.

Totally unenforceable, pointless and ridiculous.

Adults hitting each other is impossible to police fully. It happens and people get away with it. But that law means that we all know it's illegal and wrong. And it means we have recourse if someone really is getting hurt. Why shouldn't children have the protection we have. Should we reverse all prohibitions that are hard to police - drug-taking, speeding, drink-driving? Er, no.

"The law will ne there to send a massage to all parents.."

lol

That might work actually - 'here, 'ave a massage luv and while your at it, a think about what you're doing..'

I meant message thoigh

I think all of you who are trying to push this as some invasion of human rights need to serioulsy take pause.

And we need laws that tell people how to parent - we really do. Because children are the only people who are forced to live with and have their lives totally ruled by someone allocated to them by random chance - ie their parents. And that could be - and often is - someone violent, alcoholic, abusive - we all know that. The law is what they have to protect them. Everyone who says "It's every paret's own business how they bring up their child and no one else's" - that's actually total nonsense, if you think about it.

Totally agree MTS/SL - I am a liberal at heart, but do feel that the state does need to intervene in teaching some people to bring up their children, because communities no longer do so. The nanny state has only had to grow since families stopped living in close contact with their nannies, and mothers and honorary aunties who lived down the road, who would previously have intervened if children were being mistreated by their parents.

You cannot compare smacking a child to smacking an adult. I have smacked my son on 2 occassions and know that on both, it was th ewrong thing to do.

On the first occassion, he sunk his teeth into my boob and my reaction was immediate and unthought. Had he been an adult, I would have decked him!

On the second occassion he trapped another child's finger in the door (accidentally) and then proceeded to laugh at that child's pain. This was such a horrible thing to do that I just felt rage at him. An adult would never react like this and if they did, you would probaly seek psychiatric care for them.

My point is that children act in a way that adults do not and are often uncontrolled. So while I agree that it is never appropriate to hit them, I think there are occassions when it is understandable and should not be criminalised.

It is a criminal offence to brutalise a child, but an exasperated parent acting out of desperation does not need the threat of intervention from the state. When ds bit my boob we were in Tescos carpark and I was already at the end of my tether. The though of all those well meaning busy bodies reaching for their phones would have probably been more than I could have born at the time.

MonkeyTrousers I think j3's post illustrates completely beautifully that ordinary people WOULD and COULD be criminalised by this.

Well I think there is a middle ground. We do have laws already and they seem to work fine. That's the slippery slope that gets everyones knickers in a twist. The idea that they would not be alllowed to use their common sense when parenting. That is the case and a law againbst smacking does not change that.

People who are violent, alcoholic, abusive are already sanctioned by law as parents. Social services do a fantastic job.

We do not want primary carers (and for the most part that means women) in a headlock here. We must not forget that most parents are caring and bring up their kids as well as they can. They have to be allowed to make choices based on their own personal circumstances - but that choice should not sanction any use of violence - and that said by someone who has smacked - albeit very rarely - but I've known I have totally renaged on my paretning and protecting duties when I have done and looked for help andf advice so I can lessen the chances of it happening agaon.

The same for abusive almost constant shouting. It's just as harmful.

It's impossible to comment on any hearsay people post here. The police and SS aren't perfect yes, but neither are they idiots. J3's story is not hard evidence against un;ess we can actually know all the details, whcih we can't here.