Would you ban smacking? Take our two-question-takes-less-than-10-seconds poll (and be entered into this week's comp)

[carriemumsnet]

Tomorrow Parliament will debate whether to outlaw smacking completely. The current law allows parents (and some carers) to discipline children using "reasonable punishment" but outlaws punishment that leaves physical marks or causes mental harm. The last attempt to impose a full ban on smacking was defeated in 2004 .

We've put together a quick (and we mean quick) two question poll to see what Mumsnetters think about this and will hopefully be able to make your views known to the world first thing tomorrow.

For more info on the story click here

Everyone who takes part in the poll will be entered into this week's competitions to win one of 3 sets of Walker picture books worth £100 each, a week's luxury ski accommodation in France or one of 4 Fisher-Price doll and stroller sets. For more info on comp prizes click here

And just in case you need the poll link again it's here

Once you've done the poll please add your views on the subject here (as if mumsnetters need any encouragement to make their views known ).

Thanks

MNHQ

So would you outlaw shouting at your child as well?

Yeah That's what my whole post was about wasnt't it. Note the new paragraph

That was a genuine question, MonkeyTrousers. I'm interested to know how far you think the state should be involved in our parenting decisions.

My personal view is that unless a child is in danger of serious physical or emotional harm from sustained violent or abusive behaviour, the state has no business telling us how to be parents.

Just as they have no right to tell us what to eat, what to wear, or whether we need a coat on cold mornings.

They should advise. They should support. They should inform and educate.

But legislation should be reserved for the point at which people are causing actual harm to someone else.

And people have talked a lot about the harm caused by violence and beating, which I completely agree is wrong. But is there any evidence that the odd smack in extreme circumstances (I shan't call it a tap, that would be disingenuous) causes harm?

I'd be genuinely interested to see any evidence of this, not trying to be inflammatory, just interested.

But LMD, look at your last post and replace child with adult. It isn't OK to hit an adult, whatever the circumstances. It isn't forgiven because they were really riling you, or because they came to no long-term harm. It's just wrong. And that's true of adults with learning disabilities and elder;y people with alzheimer's who may behave like children and not understand explanations etc etc etc. It's just disrespectful, wrong and illegal and somehow we manage to take that on board. I think we can manage the same for children - if not I think it shows a serious lack of imagination.

I was hit as a child - not all the time and not violently battered, and I wasn't badly hurt. But it was the humiliation and knowing that this person was prepared to hit you that did the damage.

I am aghast at the lack of discipline a lot of children grow up with these days and I am very in favour of firm discipline and boundaries. But hitting undermines that. It says "well it's OK because I just lost it". How is that OK and what message does it give a child? We want them to respect us, we should respect them.

"But is there any evidence that the odd smack in extreme circumstances (I shan't call it a tap, that would be disingenuous) causes harm?"

Just imagine you were saying this about men who hit their wives LMD.

there seem to be quite a few people who have a rather black and white idea of what law is, what role it performs, how it is used by society, the police and the courts. This black and white view seems to lead them to say stuff about this law criminalising/watching over good parents who once in their life lost their rag. As well as individual pieces of legislation outlawing this and that we have a wealth of principles that are applied, we have case law, we have concepts like reasonableness, we have different ways of bringing prosecutions (private and crown), we have a range of defences, we have mitigating circumstances - we have all manner of stuff that would apply and be relevant, in addition to this prohibition. the law (by which I mean the law as a whole, not this particular piece of legislation) is a nuanced, complex thing and can and is applied carefully and thoughtfully - by police and by judges. I agree with snowleopard - you can allow for many complexities and you can note that a law might be difficult to apply, but it's a baseline. we shouldn't hit children.

Can I be quite clear, I don't agree with smacking children, and I don't think it's right, I'm not defending the practice. I felt thoroughly ashamed of myself on the one occasion that I smacked DS, and hope I never do it again.

"But hitting undermines that. It says "well it's OK because I just lost it". How is that OK and what message does it give a child? We want them to respect us, we should respect them." - I entirely agree snowleopard. But I think we should leave parents to be the ones to make that call. I don't agree that legislation is what's needed here, and I don't think it's the law's place to get involved in parenting at this level.

I think we can and should help people to be good parents, through education and support. We should teach people about how to discipline their child in effective ways. We should also try to remove some of the huge sources of stress that our current society places on parents. And we absolutely should sanction cases of abusive or neglectful parenting that cause harm.

But in the middle, you have to give people the freedom to make their own parenting decisions, otherwise you end up in situations where parents cannot parent at all, because their every move is under scrutiny.

oh sorry, and the other point is this - I would never say this about people who hit their partners, because that is a different relationship. A partner is not in the position of 'teaching' their partner anything, and as an adult, their partner is responsible for their own lives.

But parents are in the position of teaching their child how to behave. I don't agree that smacking is necessarily the best way of teaching that, but there have been many examples on here already of parents saying that at particular ages, a sharp smack on the hand has been the only way to stop a child doing something that is actively dangerous.

If my DP runs into the road in front of a bus and is killed, then noone would blame me.

If my child runs into the road and is killed, and I didn't teach him that cars were dangerous and that he shouldn't do that? I would be pilloried.

I dont agree that that the SS do a fantastic job MT and that isnt because of my personal view or my experience with SS tbh I dont think the resources are there for them
They left me and my family totally upset at the allegations and they sent me a letter 9 months after the allegation
(within them 9 months me and dh could of beaten ,belted punched and kicked them)btw i am being sarcastic so where would of been that follow up and intervention..

My point is you cannot criminalise decent parents throw allegations at them leaving them bemused and bewildered and not follow it up...this does not make sense

I think banning this is pointless - any movement like this creates a backlash of people saying "How dare the government tell me what to do in my own home etc etc" anyway, and it's unenforceable. Waste of time IMO.

I don't agree with smacking personally, although I was smacked ("and I'm OK"). The thing I dislike about smacking is that often it happens because the parent has lost it, not because the child has done something which warrants it. So it is often disproportionate to the crime, so to speak. All it taught me (not that I was smacked a lot, but I witnessed younger siblings on the receiving end of it fairly frequently) was that the way to deal with anger is to lash out. Obviously this is not a good way to live life and I have to deal with this and try to find alternatives, which is something very difficult. Only since having a child of my own have I really grasped the ease with which I could perpetuate the problem.

I think a lot more good could come of providing more resources and support for parents facing tough times, and efforts need to be made to destigmatise this. What's the point in banning something if people are not educated about the alternatives?

Does entry to the comps depend on our answers?

It'll make no difference at all to those who are smacking in an abusive manner ( ie losing control & battering the hell out of the weans, flinging them up against the wall etc etc) and criminalise parents who are just giving a wee tap when their 2yo tries to jump into the fast lane of the M1.

I dont think smacking should be banned as sometimes children will only respond to 'the short sharp shock treatment' as we call it at home but I am talking about a small tap on the leg or bum. not being beaten with a big stick or completely hammered. I dont see how they can ban it completely tbh but we shall see. The panel of parliment members probably either have wonderfully perfect children or dont have any at all.

I read some research once that said children are far more traumatised by a smack if they know the parents are not allowed to, e.g a Swede in Sweden losing it and smacking a child compared to a smack given here or to further extremes say in Asia where the cane is a norm and though it's something to avoid it is acceptable.

In this country I feel even if parents do smack or can't smack, standards are failing thus letting children down and thus feeds the cycle of insecure, rude youth.

My Swedish friend could not believe for example that hoods are banned from many supermarkets, she took a photo of the sign as she was so astonished and I told her what people think of youth with hoods and the odd stories of wear a 2 yr old has been banned from a shop due to a hood, as a nation common sense is being taken away from us and that is why I feel we are worse off.

another vote - expat for PM

ok iv done the poll i would be happy with any prize cos i never win anything!!

so im not against smacking on the whole and think there is a world of difference between smacking a childs bottom when he/she has been 'naughty' as a last resort and regularly beating a child out of anger/frustration need for control! a ban on smacking will only serve to scare the innocent vulnerable parents who are at the end of their tether when they resort to a smack. those who already beat their children will not take any notice of it and may even use more emotional abuse to keep it quiet!!

for the record i was brought up in an environment where my father was not slow to smack and more than once myself and my brothers and sister were left with more than one bruise (one time so bad that my brother who was 6 at the time had to be kept off school as he couldnt sit down)
i would never dream of going to the extreme that my parents did and find it hard to stop myself from smacking my DD when she presses my buttons but i DO control myself as i know what a loss of control can result in!
i know that sounds like a contradiction that i am not against smacking but i dont do it myself (i am not suggesting i have never smacked my DD but a smack on the hand when she has clawed my face for the tenth time is not akin to beating her regularly) but i think it is a self control issue and a parental education issue as i think it is clear that some parents have no idea how to raise a child properly and if there was more support available the parent would never end up striking their child in the first place.

ok rant over!! did that make any sense??
xx ei xx

I'll have the ski accommodation please (although anything would do).

Books or dolls for me please!
Have smacked both DD's on occasion when its been warranted. I got the occasional smack when I was growing up from my mum - you knew you were in big trouble when that happened. My dad never dished out the punishments - the fear of him getting involved was enough to send me and my sisters scurrying!! (wait till I tell your father...)

I was never smacked. We have smacked DS on the hand once or twice (once when he threw a metal train at my mouth and cut my lip).
My concerns are how would it be legislated/enforced?
What's to stop malicious teens reporting their parents for smacking (when it hasn't been done) because they've not got their own way on something?
Parental training? How, when, who pays?
And how far might this go? It's against a child's human rights to be punished/deprived of treats? (sorry, being facetious there)

This avoids the wider issues of the problems of parenting in our society.

High expectations on mothers to produce perfectly behaved children, all whilst looking fantastic and with no community support. Mothers spend far too long on their own with demanding babies/toddlers

No I don't agree with smacking but a ban just avoids the issues surrounding the taboo area of losing control and feeling violent towards children.

Mothering should not be so difficult and the urge to smack (whether you carry through with it or not) is not the mindset of a monster/child abuser but a mother desperatley in need of help/support

Of course we should not confuse this with people who repeatedly beat and verbally abuse their children

We don't hit other adults to make a point, so we shouldn't hit children either.

I was smacked as a child and I wouldn't smack my own children. I feel bad enough that I pushed my toddler away from me when she (one and only time) bit me.

I don't agree with smacking in any situation whatsover.

My reasons are:

1. My children view myself and dh as the centre of their world. We are the ones they trust to keep them safe from harm etc etc. We tell them that is unacceptable for anyone to hit them, so for them to be smacked by us would be horrifying..

1. We tell our children it is unacceptable to hit anyone for any reason... then, if we smacked them, we would be sending a confusing message, that if mum is angry enough she's allowed to do it to me..

1. regardless of whether they are in danger or not, it's no excuse to strike out at anyone, including your own child. There are other ways to discipline your child.

1. My personal opinion is if a person smacks their own child it's their own (and your their childs) behaviour they should be addressing.

I think it's important to separate the question of whether smacking is acceptable from the question of whether it should be against the law.

these are two very distinct questions, imo.

Iklboo "we have smacked ds once when he threw a metal train at my mouth and cut my lip"

I don't see how smacking to discipline an aggressive display sends the right message to be honest... surely you are saying that, yes, if your angry enough it's ok to hit, because i just did that to you.

Well yes, i do think it should be against the law, definately.

If my dh or next door neighbour hit me it would be.