what on earht are you all doing wih tis suiceide stuff

[FluffyMummy123]

Message withdrawn

Someone mentioned that the people who responded most often to so-called "suicide threads" are the ones with mental health problems of their own & therefore the least likely to be of any help. Heavy paraphrasing but that was the gist of it. Utter nonsense! Such a statement serves only to encourage & uphold the prevalent belief that anyone depressed, suicidal or with overt negative thoughts is to be branded as an incompetent fool & shunned by the masses possessing a stiff upper lip. I think you'll find that most sufferers of mental illness are all too aware of life's fragility & seemingly random incongruity.

daddyj, I think if you read the consultant psychiatrist's view, you'll see she thinks the threads are unhealthy. And I think you misrepresent the views of a lot of the mental health professionals on here who have categorically said that suicide is best left to trained professionals.

As ahundred said, you and many others on this thread misrepresent the views of myself and others as being uncompassionate. I don't think anything further could be from the truth. Just because I don't want to post on those threads doesn't mean I don't care about people who are suicidal.

But objectivity admitted further down that she ACTIVELY avoided the police that day. How is that accepting real life intervention?

And as for the attention seeking - call it a cry for help if you don't like that term. As lapin said, there are loads of attention seeking threads on here.

But these threads aren't started with someone thinking 'oh I'll come back tomorrow and see if anyone's posted', they are started wanting posts RIGHT NOW and you have people who feel COMPELLED to post in case this person does something stupid and you get other people constantly watching and refreshing for posts and they FEED off each other these threads AND you get the people who feel and get dreadfully emotionally involved in the whole thing. OF COURSE, there are lots of those type of threads on mumsnet but these always involve the most drama because it involves the possibility of someone ending their life.

I can see madamez's argument that compassion costs nothing therefore what is the problem with providing an ear or an outlet but I still believe, and haven't changed my stance, that a public board is not the place for that. We may not be helping. In fact, we may be doing exactly the opposite. And I'm talking here about the purely suicidal threads. We may providing someone enough of a crutch that they don't go and get help. And I know madamez will say 'but you could be helping' - well, I just STILL do not think we should be taking ANY chances with people's lives.

I have no problem with mental health threads or any other thread where people want to support each other but I just think the very nature of suicide being SO serious and SO final means we are not the place to deal with it. That is all.

Maybe pulling the threads straight away isn't the answer. Maybe they get pulled into a private area away from the main board where MNHQ or somebody (don't know who) speaks to them until real life help arrives. I don't know.

and there is also the issue of calls for HQ to track down the poster asap, when the board is not constantly moderated and particularly not late into the night when some of these threads get going.

yes, very true expat

I am not sure how
'this is a situation and a responsibility which it is generally not appropriate or possible for MN to bear'
has so often been understood as
'we do not want this and do not care'.

and if you read the thousands of posts on internet forums dediated to MH you will find that a large amount of people suffereing MH problems think psychiatrists are a waste of space/legal drug pushers who havent a clue.

agree with fox. And excellent comment, berolina

How do you decide who is suicidal & who isn't? You don't necessarily declare your intentions when you're at the end of your tether. Let those who need to vent, vent & those who don't want to hear about it, stay away.

All of us who post on MN are attention-seekers. If your thread or post goes unanswered, you feel ignored.

As for the fear of saying the wrong thing or giving bad advice & "pushing" a suicidal person over the edge, I doubt it. Much more likely to do harm by telling them their thread is inappropriate & to go elsewhere with their problems. It's certainly vital for the suicidal person to get appropriate medical help asap but presumably they already know that! Mental illness does not equal stupidity & ignorance.

Perhaps a solution would be to not let the thread go on indefinitely without some sort of MNHQ intervention.

yes, you're right, let's dismiss the opinions of mental health professionals straight away shall we? Why not? They obviously haven't got a clue because thousands of mentally ill people on the internet say so. I mean jesus.

Dittany and DaddyJ - you've had some stick, so just wanted to say I wholeheartedly agree with what you have posted.

And let's not be revisionist about the way this thread has gone - it started with some terribly offhand, undoubtedly uncompassionate posts and has since turned into a thoughtful debate.

My perception of the posters who don't want MN to be the forum for the seriously depressed mum is their Them and Us mindset, by which I mean they can't identify whatsoever with what it's like to entertain suicidal thoughts. Fair enough, and good for them, but they therefore see those who have them as Other, categorised as 'the mentally ill', 'sick', etc. So their instinct is a fearful one: go elsewhere, see an expert (some saying it with compassion, some not). My own background makes me feel more affinity and so my instinct, and that of many others here, is to reach out and try to help through shared experience.

If this wasn't a web forum and we were all just in a room together, I'd do the same.

I think there could also be a problem with the OP EXPECTING that MN will track them down and stop them
if this happens sometimes they may well believe there is a strategy in place to enable this ALWAYS to happen
people do sometimes make gesture suicide attempts, either partly or completely wanting to be saved
it's a dangerous business to allow people to think they can come on here, announce they've taken an od, and that other posters or MNHQ will trace them and send an ambulance

Good old Cod! She must be delighted with the debate. Trust her to throw the subtle hand-grenade & then run!

'My perception of the posters who don't want MN to be the forum for the seriously depressed mum is their Them and Us mindset, by which I mean they can't identify whatsoever with what it's like to entertain suicidal thoughts. Fair enough, and good for them, but they therefore see those who have them as Other, categorised as 'the mentally ill', 'sick', etc. So their instinct is a fearful one: '

Categorically and completely untrue.

And people who are suicidal are beyond seriously depressed.

They are in a life-threatening, emergency situation.

THAT is the difference people have tried time and again to get across.

But it's continually shot down as being uncaring and devoid of compassion.

I agree, F&Z. It's impossible for MNHQ to take action (and therefore responsibility) for sucidal threads. Perhaps they shouldn't intervene at all.

Franny - yes that is absolutely utterly my concern with these threads too. I have no beef whatever with those people severely affected by mental illness posting and getting support on here - it's the life or death situations that trouble me.

don't get me wrong - I think MNHQ have done the best they can in every situation, and I am glad they have gone to the effort of contacting posters etc

but this could really lead to disaster at some point
it's very tricky

Thinkstoomuch you're making some incorrect assumptions about posters then. No way is there a them and us attitude. No way is anyone saying that depression and mental health issues shouldn't be discussed and support given. Like Dittany, you are not listening. I've certainly had my fair share of supporting someone through the mental health system and through serious life threatening depression, I know what's available and what isn't and although it's not ideal, Id trust it more than any alternative.

People are ONLY talking about the acute suicide threads, where someone is talking about taking their own life, threatening to do it then and there. And no one is talking about shunning that person - but they need to realise that there ARE options for them, there is real life help available, adn be supported to persue that straight away rather than think that mn can provide an alternative.

Which bit is untrue?

A lot of people who are at the point of suicide become remarkably clear-headed.

I know I did. It's like a black cloud lifting, 'Eureka! I found the way out! I won't have to feel like this anymore.'

You're past depression, you're so ill you often think quite rationally about your demise, and, as the psychiatrist pointed out, even go to lengths to avoid detection whilst you make your plans.

Not all, of course not, not everyone will behave in the same way.

Some people have pointed out that they don't feel comfortable posting on threads about miscarriage or stillbirth because of their own experiences.

The same applies on suicide threads. And everyone knows I'm a familiar name on the mental health topics.

But I've said time and again when someone is suicidal and posts on here and then puts off getting RL help - avoiding the police, etc. - there's a problem with these threads and they're not healthy at the least.

This part, Thinks:
'My perception of the posters who don't want MN to be the forum for the seriously depressed mum is their Them and Us mindset, by which I mean they can't identify whatsoever with what it's like to entertain suicidal thoughts.'

''My perception of the posters who don't want MN to be the forum for the seriously depressed mum is their Them and Us mindset, by which I mean they can't identify whatsoever with what it's like to entertain suicidal thoughts. Fair enough, and good for them, but they therefore see those who have them as Other, categorised as 'the mentally ill', 'sick', etc. So their instinct is a fearful one: go elsewhere, see an expert (some saying it with compassion, some not).''

That is the bit that isn't true. IMHO.

Yes, but it's my perception. It's fair enough to say it's not your own stance, but not that it's objectively untrue.

x-posts with expat - yes, that's the bit. You can't be assuming to know the mental health of everyone you disagree with, is showing poor understanding of the argument.

Thinkstoomuch, if you call your posts to me yesterday 'thoughtful debate' then I shudder to see what you are like when you are not thoughtful.

Your perception is incorrect. I'm not afraid of mentally ill people/people who are suicidal. I want them to get the RIGHT help and I'm not convinced that using the board the way it is used and especially the scenario that Franny paints is the best way to achieve that.

how weird, I was going to start a thread on this very same subject last week

olive and cod, like two peas in a bitchy pod