what on earht are you all doing wih tis suiceide stuff

[FluffyMummy123]

Message withdrawn

Mummlin I don't think that people are suggesting that those in despair don't come and talk things through at all. I don't think that the people who are talking about thread deletion are being cruel or insensitive, quite the opposite, they believe that it is actually more compassionate to direct people quickly to rl help rather than have it become a spectacle and a drama, get advice that may or may not be helpful, run the risk of having a very serious situation actually not being taken seriously because none of us know what is really happening, it could be distressing for those involved, distressing if there is a successful suicide for anyone who has tried to help.

No one is objecting to threads saying 'i'm really struggling to cope, please talk to me'. It's the 'i'm going to kill myself' threads which we need to think about the best way to approach for everyone.

Disagree. I don't think mental illness is a taboo subject on MN. This place is stuffed with people with some form or history of depression - it is very noticeable as a newcomer. And it is often, if not always, talked about.

I think you are misunderstanding the really very cogent arguments put forward on this thread Dittany, and it is quite wrong really of you to pretend that people who are saying this is not the place, and that people who are seriously mentally ill should be seeking proper help are saying that because they either don't understand or don't care. It's almost a wilful misunderstanding of their POV.

It will be interesting to see what MN comes up with I think.

That is very far from how i'm reading this Dittany. Yes, it's a taboo subject, but that's not the motivation behind this at all. I bet you many of the people you're arguing with here have experience of the mental health system.

And maybe those responding to these threads wouldn't want thread deletion, but maybe some of those people are quite enjoying the drama of it all. NOt all of course, there are some wonderful and genuinely very thoughtful people on mn. However, it's about the person in distress isn't it - if they are suicidal they need actual real help, medication, counselling, hospital treatment, cpn care - none of which mn provides - maybe should and could signpost to, and certainly providing people to talk things through with after the crisis, but in a crisis situation, the drawn out dramatic chase threads could be dangerous and damaging.

dittany, I agree that mental health is still very much a taboo subject. Apart from that I think I pretty much disagree with everything else in your post.

Boco has summarised very accurately the reasons why some of us have concerns about these specific suicide threads. I still have grave concerns that mn is seen as 'as good as' or 'better' alternative to someone seeking help who is experiencing acute suicidal ideations. It is not about people turning their backs on those in need of desperate help, it (well in my mind) is that is mn the best place for them to be seeking it?

Objectivity and FAQ have very kindly explained that these threads have helped them through the worst times and have encouraged them to seek RL help. If that is the case, then they should undoubtedly stay (both the posters and the threads - obviously ).

The overwhelming impression from this thread, is that these threads should not be deleted. I'm sure mnhq will have taken note of that.

I really can't comment on your last paragraph, as I think it is rude in the extreme to those who have trained and work as mental health professionals. But you are entitled to your own opinions of course.

boco.i agree that people in this position should be directed to get urgent professional advice,but until they are able to ,or someone can help them to do it,my personal opinion is that just in the immediate instance coming to mn for some help is better than nothing and would be awful if they felt they couldnt do that.Of course they should go to the appropriate medical people and if they were thinking logically they would,but from experience of my sister,logic flies out of the window when she has been suicidal.i would like to think that someone would help my sister and try and persuade her to get the correct help.

i can see dittany's point myself,but i think it depends enirely on what the mental health services are like where you live.having used MH sevices both in greater london,and in the north where i am now,i am aware it varies far too much for anybody to make blanket statements about getting 'professional help'.

the MH professionals where i am would do a wondeful job if only they werent expected to do the job of 7 people,or their job title/description got changed every 2 weeks by some clueless pencil pusher.

Well isn't that the exact point mummylin?

'i would like to think that someone would help my sister and try and persuade her to get the correct help.'

That's what's being said, persuaded to get the CORRECT help. Maybe a long thread of 'talk to us, tell us everything, tell us what's going on for you?' is really the correct help. I don't know if it is or not, if it could make things worse or better, I don't.

So, referred to correct help is the only way really isn't it. Directed to gp, a&e, cpn, samaritans etc rather than encouraged to deal with it all online with strangers watching.

oh,and MH is still very much a taboo subject.i agree.the reason it gets talked about fairly freely on MN is that we can remain annonymous here.i doubt very much most posters who talk about their problems on MN would do so in the school playground.

there was a recent thread where someones MIL said that mums with PND just needed a good nights sleep,and that thread certainly showed that many people are still very ignorant about MH issues.

Divastrop I agree. I think if you look at services for any chronic health problems (mental or physical) they are underfunded (badly underfunded) and understaffed.

I cannot go back to work as a physio as there are no jobs in the field in which I specialise, all the posts have been frozen. Elderly rehab is just not important (or deserving of staff to do it)so it seems .

I know people have bad experiences when they seek help from the health service (and this tempers their view of how useful/helpful it is).

I still (with my free nhs rose tinted glasses on) think being seen by a MH professional is the best route in these particular types of cases.

I did say not all of them and that some are genuinely thoughtful. And I don't have a blanket opinion of all mumsnetters, there are thousands of people who use this site, no, i don't trust the motives of all of them. I dont' think all suicide threateners are attention seeking either - I have no idea how serious or how desperate they are which is exactly why they need to find actual help rather than rely only on mn.

Dittany you are not very good at actually listening to what people are saying but you are excellent at twisting things. You are determined to see this as a disagreement between The Compassionate and The Not Compassionate. You're actively wrong about that.

dittany I think there is a huge problem with the term 'attention seekers'. It is seen as a terrible insult, an insinuation of weakness.

Of course if you look at thie term literally then that is a very good and accurate description of what is going on. If you need help, human beings on the whole tend to say help me.

I think lapin on another thread said that really all of the threads on mn are attention seeking in a way, they are all saying

"hey you lot of mners come and talk to me about.......

shoes
cake
tents
my terrible day
my hideous MIL
vegetables

etc etc"

It is just when somone is in acute mental distress they would probably phrase it more along the lines of any of the recent thread titles and OPs we are discussing here.

I do not, for one moment think they are weak or silly, or anything else negative really. I am filled with pity and sadness and I do not know what to say.

The reason I think you are not listening is comments about the people on this thread -' turning their backs on people who are really in need of help.', reinforcing the taboo, having a low opinion of mnetters, seeing everyone as either attention seekers or liking the drama - you're picking out the bits that suit your argument and not recognising what is actually being said.

No one is objecting to people getting much needed support and talking things through AT ALL. No one is saying that people giving support are liking the drama. The specific situations being discussed are crisis situations where people are threatening to take their own lives, something that we are not able or equipped to deal with and that does not make us cold or dispassionate.

and I really think you are missing the tone of this thread that the last thing anyone here wants to do is dismiss or deride them.

That's also a perfect example of how not to be helpful to someone suicidal isn't it! This is just what a depressed person needs isn't it, someone getting pissed off with them for not providing regular progress reports and demanding something 'back' for the support they've got!

oooh lapin were you harsh?

Regarding the tone of this thread, slubber, I just re-read the first 100 posts
(including yours) and they are crawling with dismissive and mocking statements about people in despair.
Makes very ugly reading, I am sorry to say.
(though I respect the fact that you have moderated your stance since)

It's a long thread so let me reiterate for those who still think that Mumsnetters cannot do this, only Samaritans can:
This argument has been comprehensively knocked on the head.
By Samaritans. Who are on this very thread.
And who have confirmed that Mumsnet is doing a perfectly good job in these situations,
regardless of a few rubbernecking trolls.

A person was going to end her life. Her children were going to lose their mother.

If some people think that's entertainment, well, that's their problem,
why on earth would you want to punish the person who has asked for help?

DaddyJ, I've just had a re-read too. I realise that a lot of the threads at the start were blunt in the extreme (and I'm sure could be seen as dismissive), I think that what the majority of us (initial) 'pull the threaders' were saying is that professional help should be sought in these situations.

I imagine plenty still feel that way.

I don't see a lot of mocking tbh.

With regard to your opinion that mn is as good as the samaritans, well we will have to agree to disagree on that one.

...and I'm being kicked off the computer now.

DaddyJ, have just gone back through the early posts myself and I really don't see where anyone was being dismissive or mocking.

dittany, I do agree with Boco that you are representing this in a very blac-and-white way. (Excellent posts, btw, Boco and Slubber). It is unfair to imply that those of us who have concerns about the appropriateness of MN to help people in extreme despair, in acute life-or-death situations, as callous, uncaring people who want to see these posters hounded off MN with a cry of 'get thee to the Samaritans'.

I am far from convinced that actually deleting the thread mid-flow is the way to go. But I certainly think there needs to be a much stronger, if you like, community impulse on MN to direct the person to the correct help. NOBODY is saying we should post 'here's the number of the Samaritans, now bugger off'. But I do feel in these circumstances a post along the lines of

I am very, very sorry you are feeling so desperate. Everything seems extremely bleak and overwhelming for you now, but please be aware that this can and will pass if you get yourself some help. We on MN are here and we are listening, but there is only so much we can do for you, and there is RL help out there, and we really want you to take it to start on the road to safety and then recovery. Please call [samaritans/GP/MN team/A&E] now. Come back and update us when you can - we care and we want to know you are getting to a place of safety

is (IMVVVHO) as close to appropriate as one can get in this situation.

(This has taken forever to write. Apologies if the discussion has moved on)