FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

I’m not speaking for you, I’m counter arguing your points you are making without anything to back it up. That’s what happens on a discussion board. If you present an opinion which I feel contributes to harming women and girls, I’m going to counter argue it.

Also this is not the feminism board.

@PeopleLikeColdplay well it isn't, quite obviously. It's a DARVO. But I'm sure everyone can see that.

The old "I've never been bitten by a dog so therefore no dog is dangerous." Argument.

I've never been run down by a van and killed, but I still look both ways on the road..

Haven't RTFT, haven't the time.

Some boards on MN have an overwhelming majority of posters who think X on a topic, and a minority who think Y.
I'm very much in the X (or, indeed, XX) majority on FWR.
I'm a minority Y on The Doghouse and have been robustly told off, called cruel, God knows what, under various user names over the years. Fine. People are entitled to disagree with me to their heart's content. The fact that we disagree doesn't make them bad people, and doesn't make me a bad person. I politely stick to my guns.

If you think you are right, have the courage of your convictions.

@MxFlibble , indeed !
Vaping / smoking, drinking , eating too much or too little is likely to get your ass handed to you too!

Exactly. FWR isn't unique in any sense on MN for robust discussion.

As far as I can tell @PeopleLikeColdplay , this thread was not about trans people, I'm not sure why you have introduced it .

So, my posting in response to your naming me on a thread about hostility is what you describe a 'pile on'?

If posters want a different kind of post on any board the only way to get it is to make it, really. But pointless raging at others for not making the posts you want to see.

That's where women are supposed to go to be beaten down, insulted if necessary, as long as they start coming out with the correct rhetoric? That's feminism, is it?

This is an example of what, to me is a really unhelpful post.

Does the poster genuinely believe that the things they are describing are being held up by another poster as feminism?

I doubt it. So why pretend you think that's what they mean? State what you actually think they mean, and then state why you disagree with it. All this "well you're saying" does not help, because no-one is saying it.

Even if it were the case that there were absolutely no predators using self ID to get into women's toilets and use unconsenting women and children for their own ends (which isn't true, see Katie Dolatowski) - I still want single sex spaces.

I just want single sex spaces because I only feel safe there, I feel my children are safer there and I want privacy and dignity.

Plenty of women and men agree. Some religions require single sex spaces.

So it doesn't actually matter whether or not trans people are all lovely or not. It's immaterial.

They can use their birth sex toilets or gender neutral ones or even campaign for special 'trans' ones if they want. I don't care. I only wish to use actually single sex toilets. Not toilets that say they're single sex but it's a lie.

Other people need and want single sex and anyone who ignores that fact is deliberately crossing over clearly stated boundaries. Clear 'no'. I.e. ignoring consent.

If you want to discuss feminism in general then the other board is for you. As you’ve said, it’s very slow there.

The FWR board is very strongly single issue. The splitting of the board into two was done so that people who were not interested in discussing single sex spaces etc could avoid that. Most of the people who regularly used the board are interested in discussing that so the FWR area is the most used.

I’m not surprised if you find people strongly disagreeing with you or being suspicious of your intent. The posters on there have fought to be allowed to discuss their views. MN lost advertisers (fuck you Flora) for ‘allowing’ gender critical discussions. People start threads on there to capture screenshots to post on other sites. Openly gender critical people have been harassed, doxxed, lost their jobs and had to sue for their right to talk about this.

Is this a personal attack against Hellebore?

I wonder also though about whether people are actually 'advance searching' or whether people just remember posters and what they have said when they have come across them.

I have seen the accusation at times and the person being accused has simply pointed out that no, they just remember previous interactions.

Yes, of course that's the case OP, the hostile culture to alternative views of FWR has been well established for a long time now, and the personal attacks on dissenting voices are inevitable and invariable.

Alternative views just aren't usually posted because, well, who needs that in their day? Why would anyone want to return to defend themselves against an onslaught of misrepresentation and lies?

So you'll get the usual posters calling you a man, or a TRA, then you'll get others who lie about what you have said, then you'll get the further pile on of those who are replying to those lies, and not what you have actually said. It's wearying.

FWR posters like to describe this as 'robust' conversation and additionally appear to have a strangely misplaced sense of their own intellect and critical reasoning ability (no-doubt reinforced by the echo chamber they have created and bolstered by the repeated claps on backs given to each other).

I think the vast majority of Mumsnet posters are well aware of all the above, and sensibly, stay clear.

Exactly. I have a pretty good memory for posters. I know who has done a 180 and who I've had past run ins with. I recognise a lot of name changers as well, but I don't generally call them out, as people have the right to name change. It might come out in my posts to them though, can't really help that.

My post was in response to @Helleofabore

I wouldn’t visit MN very much were it not for FWR and the intelligent, thoughtful discussions I find on there.

@MarsScarlet When i first went on FWR i was robustly challenged on my expressed views and beliefs. I also felt a bit battered and bruised at first. Not because any one was rude but because I HAD GOT SOME THINGS WRONG. Because i was ill informed and was not in possession of enough information.

And some of the great names appearing here provided me with books research links and contacts.

And i went away a read and read and also source non recommended books and have now formed settled views. I have mild disagreements sometimes.

I have never seen or experienced any of the incidences or insults you describe.

It was obvious to me shortly in to the FWR board what the general consensus was.

So why are you so bothered just don’t go there if you don’t like it, or as i suspect you dont like people disagreeing with you.

Personally, I don't find it necessary to AS posters who are clearly posting in bad faith, attempting to shut discussion down, or criticising women with opinions. They tell me who they are in every post.

You don’t want to be on the general board because it’s too quiet, so you go onto a board that’s full of people who have a particular shared viewpoint that you don’t agree with. Then you get pissy because they have no time for you. If you went onto (I’m assuming it’s a thing) the Camping board and said you don’t like sleeping outdoors, some people might try to convince you but I don’t think you’d get much positive engagement if you kept it up for 4 years.

So why are you so bothered just don’t go there if you don’t like it, or as i suspect you dont like people disagreeing with you.

I actually have a particularly high threshold for being able to tolerate people who disagree with me. I don't feel like it's my job to tutor everyone in the ways of righteousness, so I don't mind if people have opposing views.

That said, I don't appreciate outright rudeness, which is why I stay away. Also, the way you've written this post makes it sound a little like you've been indoctrinated into a cult. Something about this makes me feel uneasy. Even more reason to avoid it, regardless of what good points may be being made amongst the opinion pugilism.

All the really awful posts are deleted, so it's pointless anyone asking for evidence now. All we have is PPs who remember them.

then you'll get others who lie about what you have said, then you'll get the further pile on of those who are replying to those lies, and not what you have actually said. It's wearying.

Funnily enough which has just happened by the FWR board haters.

You all want me to hate trans people.
You have lived experience so no one else can have opinions.
Because I've encountered not heard of no adverse incidents by trans women men should be allowed in toilets (and don't bother giving evidence or evidence to the contrary or I'll accuse you of being hostile and piling on).

Yep, it's wearying.

No shortage or those who avoid the board or who have it hidden coming on to say they avoid it and have it hidden though.

How convenient.