Page 22 | FWR | Mumsnet

MarsScarlet · 2025-01-27T06:05:22+00:00

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on. This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board. There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration. I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible. I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for {mention:MNHQ} to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

BobbyPeruLikeTheCountry · 27/01/2025 22:51

@blownawaybyit No one things transwomen are a universal threat. We just think they are male and males are the biggest threat to women.

You play sports with your sexed body, not your gender identity or intentions which is why there should be a blanket ban on transwomen competing against women.

It definitely does meet the definition of an ideology.

popeydokey · 27/01/2025 22:51

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 27/01/2025 21:16

Does any woman on FWR (not the trolling posters/ploppers) have a position that differs from that? It's definitely my position and any GC person I know.

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Sorry this is some time ago and I'm replying just to this to clarify- i meant a small number of TRAs (or claiming to be... who knows?) have tried to be honest about their position. And it was breathtakingly misogynistic. At best, really childish beliefs about what men and women must be like - with a healthy dose of homophobia thrown in.

So it's clear why people with those sorts of beliefs shy away from setting out exactly what they mean.
I could link to the thread sometime but now would just be a pile-on.

Boiledbeetle · 27/01/2025 22:52

GailBlancheViola · 27/01/2025 22:31

I've been ill so not around much. But I got a Tunnocks tin filled with Caramel wafers at Christmas!!!!

Wow! Someone knows you well and thinks very highly of you (please don't burst my bubble by saying you bought it for yourself).

I did not. Someone who seems to know me better than I know myself did! And I love her all the more for it.

popeydokey · 27/01/2025 22:57

. "Nuanced discussion"? Please. What you really mean is,

Here we go. Perfect example of not being able to argue with what's being said, so simply change it to something no-one is saying or meaning, and you win.... some kind of points on your own high-5 system?

This is the kind of dishonesty that runs through these kinds of posts.

It genuinely seems to me asking too much for people to post honestly . Try and understand what the "other side" mean and point out why THAT is wrong, not just make shit up.

Language is important. It communicates ideas. Don't pretend words mean different things. In fact, don't pretend at all. What a waste of time it is.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 27/01/2025 23:00

blownawaybyit · 27/01/2025 22:44

Oh, I see what’s happening here: some of you are trying to dress up your dismissiveness as some kind of intellectual civility. Let’s dissect the points since you’ve gone to the effort of misunderstanding everything so thoroughly.

No, it’s not “transphobic” for women to advocate for single-sex spaces - it’s transphobic when the advocacy assumes that trans women don’t belong because of some imagined universal threat. Framing trans women as intruders into these spaces isn’t protecting anyone - it’s othering a vulnerable group for existing. If your solution to safety is exclusion based on stereotypes, it’s not about safety; it’s about discrimination.

Once again, you’re misconstruing the argument. It’s not bigotry to discuss fairness in sports; it’s bigotry to blanket all trans women as "males invading women’s spaces" as though their identities and intentions don’t matter. Governing bodies already regulate these issues - based on actual science, not your feelings - and the tiny number of trans women in elite sports hasn’t “destroyed” women’s sports. Your exaggeration says more about your biases than reality.

Calling gender identity an “ideology” is reductionist at best, disingenuous at worst. Gender identity isn’t a set of arbitrary beliefs - it’s rooted in decades of medical, psychological, and sociological research. Calling it “ideology” is a rhetorical sleight of hand to strip it of legitimacy and equate it with subjective opinions. That’s why it’s dehumanising - it reduces people’s lived realities to a debate about “beliefs.”

The ultimate irony here is that you claim I don’t want to discuss when it’s clear you’re not here for good-faith dialogue. You’re not interested in understanding trans people - you’re interested in presenting your position as “rational” while dismissing theirs as emotional or invalid. The invitations to do it "on our terf (ha!)" over on the FWR board is very telling.

So no, this wouldn’t have been an “interesting” discussion because you’re not engaging with the actual issues. You’re just repackaging exclusionary rhetoric as polite disagreement and hoping no one notices.

Why do you think they are advocating for single sex spaces? You understand it's not transphobic to do so, so why do you think they are? They don't belong because they are men, and women can't tell the difference between nice men and bad men, no matter how they dress or present themselves. This has already been said. Exclusion is based on statistics which you can't argue with.

Just one man in a women's sporting team has denied a biological woman a place on the team. It does destroy it as it's no longer a women's team, it's now a mixed sex team. Just repeating what you said in the first place without explaining why you think men should be allowed to compete isn't winning you any points here. It just reinforces the unfairness for all to see.

It is an ideology as explained before which you've ignored.

You are doing what you are professing everyone else is doing. Playing down valid argument, trying to pass it off as othering, bigotry and transphobia when you've been presented with valid explanations as to why.

Why are spaces sex segregated in the first place? Why are women's rights and wants to single sex and sports considered less important than hurting a man's feelings? Why do they come second?
Why don't you understand the concept of safeguarding?

PeopleLikeColdplay · 27/01/2025 23:06

blownawaybyit · 27/01/2025 22:44

Oh, I see what’s happening here: some of you are trying to dress up your dismissiveness as some kind of intellectual civility. Let’s dissect the points since you’ve gone to the effort of misunderstanding everything so thoroughly.

No, it’s not “transphobic” for women to advocate for single-sex spaces - it’s transphobic when the advocacy assumes that trans women don’t belong because of some imagined universal threat. Framing trans women as intruders into these spaces isn’t protecting anyone - it’s othering a vulnerable group for existing. If your solution to safety is exclusion based on stereotypes, it’s not about safety; it’s about discrimination.

Once again, you’re misconstruing the argument. It’s not bigotry to discuss fairness in sports; it’s bigotry to blanket all trans women as "males invading women’s spaces" as though their identities and intentions don’t matter. Governing bodies already regulate these issues - based on actual science, not your feelings - and the tiny number of trans women in elite sports hasn’t “destroyed” women’s sports. Your exaggeration says more about your biases than reality.

Calling gender identity an “ideology” is reductionist at best, disingenuous at worst. Gender identity isn’t a set of arbitrary beliefs - it’s rooted in decades of medical, psychological, and sociological research. Calling it “ideology” is a rhetorical sleight of hand to strip it of legitimacy and equate it with subjective opinions. That’s why it’s dehumanising - it reduces people’s lived realities to a debate about “beliefs.”

The ultimate irony here is that you claim I don’t want to discuss when it’s clear you’re not here for good-faith dialogue. You’re not interested in understanding trans people - you’re interested in presenting your position as “rational” while dismissing theirs as emotional or invalid. The invitations to do it "on our terf (ha!)" over on the FWR board is very telling.

So no, this wouldn’t have been an “interesting” discussion because you’re not engaging with the actual issues. You’re just repackaging exclusionary rhetoric as polite disagreement and hoping no one notices.

Very well put

BobbyPeruLikeTheCountry · 27/01/2025 23:07

PeopleLikeColdplay · 27/01/2025 23:06

Very well put

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For any of that to be “well put” you have to explain how a man can become a woman.

AwaitingFreedom · 27/01/2025 23:11

No, it’s not “transphobic” for women to advocate for single-sex spaces - it’s transphobic when the advocacy assumes that trans women don’t belong because of some imagined universal threat.
They don't belong purely based on them being a different sex, ie male. It really is that simple.

What does the word "woman" mean to you? Can you describe that word in simple means like a dictionary would, ie adult female human.

whaddayawannado · 27/01/2025 23:12

On the rare occasion I have ever tried to join in discussions on threads in that topic I've been treated with utter disdain & contempt, and roundly told I know sod all. Shame really, since I've been a feminist since before many of them were born. Needless to say, I have hidden that topic altogether and never look at it any more.

popeydokey · 27/01/2025 23:16

Me: if one post can be found proving you wrong, then you will accept it was untrue to state what you did? Yes or no, please don't change the question I've asked.

suggestions "Are you saying you can't even find one?"

There. Proof my words get changed.

I need an accessible device for searching threads and I'm not going to bother if you are going to lie about what you claimed. Will you? I mean, it's written down in this thread, but will you pretend you meant something else?

Out of interest, you refer to "my position" in your post, @suggestionsplease1 . What is my position, do you think? Can you articulate it in a way I would agree actually represented my position?

Or can you not and will therefore ignore or change my words?

Bannedontherun · 27/01/2025 23:17

whaddayawannado · 27/01/2025 23:12

On the rare occasion I have ever tried to join in discussions on threads in that topic I've been treated with utter disdain & contempt, and roundly told I know sod all. Shame really, since I've been a feminist since before many of them were born. Needless to say, I have hidden that topic altogether and never look at it any more.

claiming to be an older feminist does not mean you somehow know better than anyone else .i say that as an older feminist who wandered back in and needed to get back up to speed.

JoyousGreyOrca · 27/01/2025 23:20

Bannedontherun · 27/01/2025 23:17

claiming to be an older feminist does not mean you somehow know better than anyone else .i say that as an older feminist who wandered back in and needed to get back up to speed.

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You think it is fine to treat other feminists with utter disdain and contempt?

popeydokey · 27/01/2025 23:21

JoyousGreyOrca · 27/01/2025 23:20

You think it is fine to treat other feminists with utter disdain and contempt?

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do you genuinely think this is what that poster was saying, or are you pretending to think that?

Just why pretend? Why? what does it achieve?

Bannedontherun · 27/01/2025 23:22

JoyousGreyOrca · 27/01/2025 23:20

You think it is fine to treat other feminists with utter disdain and contempt?

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Explain your assertion please

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/01/2025 23:26

Thread moved a long way but going back to the OP's point

I had another username on FWR at first. On one thread (my own actually) I said something that another poster interpreted a very specific way, a pretty abhorent way, and would not let go of. I argued. I told her she had misunderstood and jumped to a wrong conclusion. I was told that I didn't mean what I said I meant, what I actually meant was this. It became a pile on. I gave up in the end. Stopped using that name because I felt I would always be painted as that person who said this abhorent thing, which I did not say but was interpreted as saying by someone else.

I eventually came back with this name. But I'm wary of some topics and frankly some posters (not anyone I've noticed on this thread BTW) because even though I respect them and their arguments, I know they have it in them to become bullying and rigid and start arguing with what they are projecting on to a poster as a representative of "the other side" not what that poster is actually saying.

So I think we should be clear eyed and see that on FWR sometimes people do get piled on and words get put in their mouth. I do see posters getting accused of being a man when honestly to me it's far more likely they are a woman with a bit of internalised patriarchy like we all have on some things, and I don't like that dynamic.

(I see that dynamic just as bad and worse from "the other side" BTW. But being as bad as them is not a goal to aim for, especially not when your position is far more defendable with rational arguement).

BobbyPeruLikeTheCountry · 27/01/2025 23:28

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/01/2025 23:26

Thread moved a long way but going back to the OP's point

I had another username on FWR at first. On one thread (my own actually) I said something that another poster interpreted a very specific way, a pretty abhorent way, and would not let go of. I argued. I told her she had misunderstood and jumped to a wrong conclusion. I was told that I didn't mean what I said I meant, what I actually meant was this. It became a pile on. I gave up in the end. Stopped using that name because I felt I would always be painted as that person who said this abhorent thing, which I did not say but was interpreted as saying by someone else.

I eventually came back with this name. But I'm wary of some topics and frankly some posters (not anyone I've noticed on this thread BTW) because even though I respect them and their arguments, I know they have it in them to become bullying and rigid and start arguing with what they are projecting on to a poster as a representative of "the other side" not what that poster is actually saying.

So I think we should be clear eyed and see that on FWR sometimes people do get piled on and words get put in their mouth. I do see posters getting accused of being a man when honestly to me it's far more likely they are a woman with a bit of internalised patriarchy like we all have on some things, and I don't like that dynamic.

(I see that dynamic just as bad and worse from "the other side" BTW. But being as bad as them is not a goal to aim for, especially not when your position is far more defendable with rational arguement).

I don’t doubt that’s true, but the thing is, it’s the same on MN as a whole. It’s not unique to FWR, is it? The same happens on chat, AIBU, even The Doghouse. Some people see just like that.

So, you have to ask yourself why OP is singling FWR out.

Bannedontherun · 27/01/2025 23:30

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/01/2025 23:26

Thread moved a long way but going back to the OP's point

I had another username on FWR at first. On one thread (my own actually) I said something that another poster interpreted a very specific way, a pretty abhorent way, and would not let go of. I argued. I told her she had misunderstood and jumped to a wrong conclusion. I was told that I didn't mean what I said I meant, what I actually meant was this. It became a pile on. I gave up in the end. Stopped using that name because I felt I would always be painted as that person who said this abhorent thing, which I did not say but was interpreted as saying by someone else.

I eventually came back with this name. But I'm wary of some topics and frankly some posters (not anyone I've noticed on this thread BTW) because even though I respect them and their arguments, I know they have it in them to become bullying and rigid and start arguing with what they are projecting on to a poster as a representative of "the other side" not what that poster is actually saying.

So I think we should be clear eyed and see that on FWR sometimes people do get piled on and words get put in their mouth. I do see posters getting accused of being a man when honestly to me it's far more likely they are a woman with a bit of internalised patriarchy like we all have on some things, and I don't like that dynamic.

(I see that dynamic just as bad and worse from "the other side" BTW. But being as bad as them is not a goal to aim for, especially not when your position is far more defendable with rational arguement).

sometimes putting your big pants on is required.

popeydokey · 27/01/2025 23:31

I'm with you, @FlirtsWithRhinos
..
Ultimately we're never going to please everyone - we can just post in the way we'd want to see the discussion going. There is a lot of dismissiveness. But I can also see why.

And I've literally just understood your username!

Bannedontherun · 27/01/2025 23:35

@popeydokey ha ha yes i just got it i love when a username becomes clear dont agree with you otherwise but that is fine

whaddayawannado · 27/01/2025 23:37

Bannedontherun · 27/01/2025 23:17

claiming to be an older feminist does not mean you somehow know better than anyone else .i say that as an older feminist who wandered back in and needed to get back up to speed.

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I've got better things to do with my life than argue the toss with women who like to tell me I'm wrong. I don't need people to tell me what to think.

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/01/2025 23:39

BobbyPeruLikeTheCountry · 27/01/2025 23:28

I don’t doubt that’s true, but the thing is, it’s the same on MN as a whole. It’s not unique to FWR, is it? The same happens on chat, AIBU, even The Doghouse. Some people see just like that.

So, you have to ask yourself why OP is singling FWR out.

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I hope it's because the topics discussed on FWR are important to them.

(Sorry Doghouse people, dogs are important as well!)

suggestionsplease1 · 27/01/2025 23:39

popeydokey · 27/01/2025 23:16

Me: if one post can be found proving you wrong, then you will accept it was untrue to state what you did? Yes or no, please don't change the question I've asked.

suggestions "Are you saying you can't even find one?"

There. Proof my words get changed.

I need an accessible device for searching threads and I'm not going to bother if you are going to lie about what you claimed. Will you? I mean, it's written down in this thread, but will you pretend you meant something else?

Out of interest, you refer to "my position" in your post, @suggestionsplease1 . What is my position, do you think? Can you articulate it in a way I would agree actually represented my position?

Or can you not and will therefore ignore or change my words?

I've asked you to just find one, a single one post in the last 3 years to back up the assertion made. TheRadiatorLady says it "happens all the time"..

Her quote:You can literally just say you think that it's unfair for males to compete in women's sports, and you'll have a TRA come on and say, "So what you're saying is that you don't want trans people to exist?" Happens all the time. How are people not seeing this?

I said not true... obviously...I mean it clearly doesn't all the time as nobody has yet provided a single quote to back this assertion up FFS 🤣

What problem do you have with this exactly...I have said something is not true, which is not true - what exactly do you see that is wrong about that?

Now I have asked you to find a single example in the last 3 years of what has been asserted happens on FWR "all if the time"

Please just crack on and do it eh?

popeydokey · Today 15:24

Before anyone does this, what number of posts will be acceptable to you to prove it happens?

suggestionsplease1 · Today 15:23

You should back up what you're saying - it's not hard, just use search terms in the search box to find what you're describing. It won't be deleted because it's not abusive, it will still be there. Go ahead.

TheRadiatorLady · Today 15:21

I can't really be arsed to trawl through a bunch of old threads, maybe someone else has some examples ready? It absolutely does happen though. If you choose not to believe me, that's fine. I'm not in the habit of saving posts. I think anyone who's spent any time on FWR knows how it goes down though!

suggestionsplease1 · Today 15:19

Simply not true - or if you think it is why don't you paste some quotes from FWR to demonstrate this? After all, content like this is not abusive, so it will not be deleted, therefore you will be able to find it and back up what you are saying. We can wait.

TheRadiatorLady · Today 15:01

Exactly. You can literally just say you think that it's unfair for males to compete in women's sports, and you'll have a TRA come on and say, "So what you're saying is that you don't want trans people to exist?" Happens all the time. How are people not seeing this?

whaddayawannado · 27/01/2025 23:42

Thank you to those who have reminded me why I don't post on FWR any more.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 27/01/2025 23:43

suggestionsplease1 · 27/01/2025 23:39

I've asked you to just find one, a single one post in the last 3 years to back up the assertion made. TheRadiatorLady says it "happens all the time"..

Her quote:You can literally just say you think that it's unfair for males to compete in women's sports, and you'll have a TRA come on and say, "So what you're saying is that you don't want trans people to exist?" Happens all the time. How are people not seeing this?

I said not true... obviously...I mean it clearly doesn't all the time as nobody has yet provided a single quote to back this assertion up FFS 🤣

What problem do you have with this exactly...I have said something is not true, which is not true - what exactly do you see that is wrong about that?

Now I have asked you to find a single example in the last 3 years of what has been asserted happens on FWR "all if the time"

Please just crack on and do it eh?

popeydokey · Today 15:24

Before anyone does this, what number of posts will be acceptable to you to prove it happens?

suggestionsplease1 · Today 15:23

You should back up what you're saying - it's not hard, just use search terms in the search box to find what you're describing. It won't be deleted because it's not abusive, it will still be there. Go ahead.

TheRadiatorLady · Today 15:21

I can't really be arsed to trawl through a bunch of old threads, maybe someone else has some examples ready? It absolutely does happen though. If you choose not to believe me, that's fine. I'm not in the habit of saving posts. I think anyone who's spent any time on FWR knows how it goes down though!

suggestionsplease1 · Today 15:19

Simply not true - or if you think it is why don't you paste some quotes from FWR to demonstrate this? After all, content like this is not abusive, so it will not be deleted, therefore you will be able to find it and back up what you are saying. We can wait.

TheRadiatorLady · Today 15:01

Exactly. You can literally just say you think that it's unfair for males to compete in women's sports, and you'll have a TRA come on and say, "So what you're saying is that you don't want trans people to exist?" Happens all the time. How are people not seeing this?

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I provided an example. There’s also one just from this thread, more than one now .Also provided examples of your post (from the thread where multiples of your posts were deleted). You just glossed right by those.

And ‘please just crack on and do it eh’. Who speaks like that?!

FlirtsWithRhinos · 27/01/2025 23:43

popeydokey · 27/01/2025 23:31

I'm with you, @FlirtsWithRhinos
..
Ultimately we're never going to please everyone - we can just post in the way we'd want to see the discussion going. There is a lot of dismissiveness. But I can also see why.

And I've literally just understood your username!

😂 yes I picked it to remind me which name to use on FWR, back when I thought I'd probably just post now and again and I might forget...