FWR

[MarsScarlet]

FYI: I've name changed for this to avoid a pile-on.

This post is about the overwhelming negativity and hostility with the FWR board that new posters and posters with a differing viewpoint face if they attempt to use the board.

There is a persistent group within the board that are, to put it simply, hateful towards others. Despite posting there on and off for more than 4 years, I have never felt welcome, despite not holding any particular extreme views or being abusive to others. Without exception, I am accused of being another poster, or a man, a TRA, or some kind of paid activist. This occurs again and again until I leave a thread in frustration.

I’ve seen this happen to many other new posters. Few return. Why would they? Such an acidic atmosphere doesn’t encourage healthy discussion. I’d just like to discuss women’s rights, but this board makes discussion impossible.

I’m not exactly sure what the answer is, except for @MNHQ to request the board to tone down the rhetoric a bit and back off on any new names they may see on the board. Let people engage with you rather than actively drive them away.

The FWR board should not be expected to be more maternal, welcoming, kind, or patient. It is one of the very few places where high- discussion on the issue are possible for GC women.

Pretty darn good they don't suffer fools gladly imho and let them water down the level. Especially the ones who have nothing say except sexist tropes of be kind, their oh so uncomfortable feelings and their projections of other's views' in order to demonise them.

It's never been resolved, the split never worked as intended,

And why was that?

we wanted a space to discuss feminism, to allow new board members to discuss it as they first stepped foot into it, without some of the older/more experienced posters turning every thread into a battle ground about Trans/GC conversations.

Is that not exactly what you got? All discussions re Sex and Gender are moved/held on the S&G Board so the Feminism Chat Board is there to use as you wish. If the Feminism Chat Board is not what you want and not running the way you want that is surely down to you and the posters who wanted it, you have the Board you want to direct as you want. You cannot blame those on the S&G Board for the failure of the Feminism Chat Board.

fwr, i used to post on both, chat i dip in and out as a poster, i read quite a bit more than post on there now, the odd thread pulls me in to talk, but it depends on energy.. most of my time and energy is taken up advocating in disability rights these days, my feminism has become very intersectional through necessity.

Hi all. We're finding this a broadly useful discussion but the surefire way to derail it is by namechecking other posters. Please don't do this - we'd prefer that you focus on the wider issues you wish to raise. Posts made in other threads are often part of broader discussions, and taking them out of that context can misrepresent the poster’s intent or meaning so it’s unfair to critique someone without the full picture. If you have concerns about an individual poster the correct way to approach this is by reporting them to us. We'd also like to remind posters that personal attacks break our guidelines so please don't do this either. Thanks.

You might consider reading intersectional feminist and Black civil rights movement opinions of tone policing. It's a silencing tactic, used to stop minoritised people from speaking. It privileges the feelings of the oppressor class over the material harm done to the oppressed class.

Tone policing really is a bad thing.

my observations are still what they were then and have remained.. there is a general air of not wanting to talk about the softer stuff, the 'beginner' feminism if you like.

The landscape is very different now than it was when the board was split, as someone else said upthread, its hard to have a feminst discussion now without it involving sex/gender issues as a part of it, ngl, sometimes i still want to have more of an exchange of thoughts and ideas rather than a robust bunfight from opposite sides of a stance.. but that is because, as i said, my main fight energy is directed more to disability rights as a first issue.

It's an internet discussion board, not an evangelical church, though. I can only speak for myself, but I'm not there to convince anyone of anything. I just want clear, honest discussion supported by as much reason and evidence as possible. Information, considered discussion, and the occasional cake recipe.

With the exception of support posts, which are quite rare on that board, we're also not there to soothe or minister to fragile 'newbies'. The implication that we should effectively mother everyone chimes with a lot of sexist tropes that feminists have been questioning for decades.

I appreciate that may sound harsh if someone is used to smoothing social niceties. All I can say is that women's liberation includes in large part challenging ingrained ideas like 'women should always be ostentatiously nice, and perform extra steps to get their point across without ever upsetting anyone'. I think of it as social frills.

Social frills are tiring and time consuming. I also frankly find them a bit distracting when we could be putting energy into more productive communication. If others enjoy that, fine, but women shouldn't be censured for choosing not to flap about taking care of strangers on the internet.

It's difficult to always separate out completely though. The threads about Trump's EO on sex and gender did get a bit derailed into abortion at times - because that's a significant political issue in the US and a lot of people seem to feel it's not possible to support Trump on one thing and not on others.

Personally I feel that there is no Feminism Chat if you can't define what a woman is... so the two will always be linked. It's an artificial divide IMO but I don't mind that it's set up like that, lots of things are.

So you campaigned for a split and then continued to post on FWR? See, I find that puzzling.

Why is it puzzling, wanting a split to be able to have a place to have discussions without S&G being involved didn't preclude me from also sometimes wanting to discuss S&G issues. They aren't mutually exclusive.

This has been an age old, long term problem where women new to the real gritty issues of feminism were wanting space to learn and expand their thoughts and beliefs on it in a more conversational manner, but couldn't, because every thread turned into a fight, or got shut down with 'we don't have to teach you, go google' which is really disingenuous.

I agree that FWR has its own sort of vibe, but I have to point out that 'we don't have to say what we mean, google it' is, genuinely and in my too-long experience, nearly always said by TRAs who can't or don't want to explain the beliefs underpinning their position.

I've honestly had that said to me countless times, usually by people who use terms ambiguously and won't clarify what they mean.

It's possible that people are now fed up of it but there have been years, literal years, of regular posters patiently explaining the same thing.

This is why it's hard for newbies to click on the top thread, not having read the previous ones, to pick up on the conversation. I'm not saying they shouldn't, just that it's good to pick your place to ask, join in, challenge.

And I have to say that the space is always there. Just like AIBU with the myriad posters who don't read the OP's updates, just like the 'diet advice', if it doesn't apply to you then create your own space, don't partake in the bunfight.

There was a reason that a set of informal guidelines were drawn up a few years ago about how to deal with 'community disrupters' in a way that aimed to let discussion flow without being sidetracked. People WANT that but it's hard to ignore the persistent derailers who are after attention.

It takes quite a bit of time and effort.

Absolutely, and I think that's disappearing across all boards. People expecting just to click in, have their say without reading the context, and then pretend to be baffled when people don't applaud them. (Not saying anyone is doing that on this thread, just... it happens).

I recall posters replying to abusive posts to ask others not to report it, so that the abuse would remain on record.

How can feminism have “nothing to do with sex and gender” when the entire point of feminism is rights for a specific sex class ?

You campaigned for a split, because you didn't like how other posters posted. You got a split. And now you are still here complaining about how the split 'never worked'?

I have to admit I'm baffled as to what it is you actually want, tbh.

and as you weren't around when it happened, you never will, and i don't have the energy to explain something you refuse to understand.

As i said, the landscape of discussion back then was quite different from what it is now.. these days i'd be more inclined against a split.

What, when the split happened? I sure was. I was told to get off the 'Chat' board, because my sort weren't welcome there. Or words to that effect.

I was around and I don't agree with your account, and why are you assuming Arabella wasn't?

And there really wasn't a 'campaign' of any kind.. some of you make it seem like it was a huge board splitting war.. it wasn't.

We asked for a more chatty/informal space, we gave reasons why we wanted it, we got granted it. Same as any request for a board split that happened in any topic on here...Some didn't like it, some of us did, it stayed.

Gosh, isn't it funny how people remember things differently.

i don't have the energy to explain something you refuse to understand.

@WinterBones is this the kind of post you would accept from a FWR regular?

I'm also unclear as to whether you're saying there is, or isn't, an appetite for discussion on Feminism Chat. (Edit - that's not me 'refusing' to understand, I just... don't.)

We asked for a more chatty/informal space, we gave reasons why we wanted it, we got granted it. Same as any request for a board split that happened in any topic on here...Some didn't like it, some of us did, it stayed.

Good for you, you got what you wanted. But still you're not satisfied?

Also it's disingenuous to claim that people just wanted a "chatty/informal space". The space was created to be free of gender stuff.

@ArabellaScott , I imagine that they are disappointed that fwr went on being a busy success and that chat became very quiet!
I don't post much at all on fwr as I have nothing new or interesting to add to the already knowledgeable posts but I don't think I've ever looked at or read a single thread in chat.

And there really wasn't a 'campaign' of any kind.. some of you make it seem like it was a huge board splitting war.. it wasn't.

Lots of us remember it very well @WinterBones

"I agree that FWR has its own sort of vibe, but I have to point out that 'we don't have to say what we mean, google it' is, genuinely and in my too-long experience, nearly always said by TRAs who can't or don't want to explain the beliefs underpinning their position."

Absolutely. We were told that just yesterday.

And this is quite confusing. So, if we take the time to post considered posts and links and resources we are told we are too demanding of intellectual discussion.

If we politely (and I mean politely because otherwise they get deleted) reply to posts that say, 'you are all bigots and don't have any experience in this, it is just you being hateful', we are considered to be using our experiences and our knowledge to chase people off.

And if we reference evidence and point out misinformation, we are not allowing alternative views, even when those views are misinformed or don't address the issue being discussed.

If we reply with 'male energy' we are aggressive, not feminine and not welcoming.

I have very rarely seen a thread where 'we don't have to teach you, go google' has been used when a poster is new and has expressed genuine questions. I have seen this said when it already has been discussed a lot on a thread or on another active thread though. And I have seen it often by posters who refuse to support their opinions, which they have declared to be factual, with evidence. I, for one, get told off for my 'essays full of links' by posters who are simply not interested in discussion. In fact, I was not the only one just last week again where we were singled out and derided for posting 'essays full of links.'

It certainly seems like the group of FWR posters usually singled out for demonisation can't do much right.

Oh... that is right. A month ago I was admonished by someone who disagreed with me, and my essays and links, for using 'seems' too often. Because .... reasons.... yet, isn't that a 'feminine' and soft tone of posting?