Ablesim on mumsnet

[Readyfreddo]

Hi. I’m really interested in whether mumsnet has an interest in and strategy for combatting the collective ableism on this site, particularly (but by no means exclusively) directed and children with and parents of kids with disabilities and additional needs.

As a parenting site I’m sure you’re aware of the massive challenges associated with raising a child with disabilities, and I’m curious whether you’d let threads about any other minority, protected group run as unchecked as you do where the discussion is around children with disabilities.

There’s a thread currently running about an autistic 3 year old queue jumping. I’d encourage the site team to read it for many examples of how problematic these discussions very often are. (In summary - the view seems to be that the three year old is probably faking it and if he isn’t why on earth is he out of the house without proper paperwork)

Again you have no idea, we automatically break down instructions as part of day to day teaching. We do multiple other things to benefit children day in day out.

Your post shows your ignorance to the reality of what happens in a classroom tbh.

Thanks @HebeMumsnet, appreciate the response.

I wonder if your moderation team and the decision making process for this includes people who are disabled / ND / are the parents of children with disabilities/neurodiversity (ideally both as non-disabled parents can’t represent people with disabilities, especially adults).

I certainly wouldn’t expect you to be pre-moderating or vetting, but I appreciate that you’re acknowledging that there’s more that could be done where threads feel like they’re starting to “turn”.

My point is, if you were serious about addressing persistent racism I hope you wouldn’t do it without closely involving people from ethnic minorities, and the same should apply to tackling ableism.

Um... I'm a qualified primary teacher, 10+ years in the classroom before I career changed. Think I have a fair idea of the reality of life in a classroom.

When did you leave?
Also primary schools tended to have TAs.... Not so much anymore.

Hey ho, we can agree to disagree. But you're hardly seeing people queuing up to teach, and lots of that is because people have realised they can't do everything they're "supposed" to.

Have not read the full thread,but have just tagged MNHQ in my site stuff thread about nappies for older children, to ask if they have an EDI policy, as it's something I'd expect for a business of this size.

@HebeMumsnet why can’t you answer everyone individually? That’s literally your job.

Hi again @Readyfreddo ,

This is a good point. There are a number of us here who have a child with a disability or neurodiversity, as well as several of us with disabilities ourselves, as you'd expect in any group of people. So these issues are certainly something many of us deal with every day and have a good understanding of. But yes, we do of course want to take on board the views of Mumsnetters themselves, which is where we hope threads like this can help, in being able to read a wide range of opinions on various aspects of a topic like this.

On which note, @OneForTheRoadThen , we're afraid that while we do read everything, due to the volume of posts every day, we can't promise to reply to every single individual post in Site Stuff; it would just be unmanageable. As a free-to-use site, we just can't afford the number of staff it would take to keep that up, sadly. If you want to alert us to one of your posts in particular that you feel needs a personal response you can always hit the report button.

People will continue to be ignorant because they have privilege to carry on being ignorant. It's only when they are confronted with their ignorant thoughts they can at least be shown how wrong they are , clearly doesn't mean they will be less ignorant thou! I think mumsnet has a responsibility to call out ignorance.

This 👏

Why would Mumsnet have a responsibility to "call out ignorance"? The moderators aren't tasked with educating us.

Well they seem to do it a lot when it comes to other areas. So I'm not sure why it cannot be done for the disabled community. And the simple thing is the general public have no idea about the problems if they r not disabled or have a disabled child themselves. So surely its common decency to, and makes a lot of sense that u have parents coming on here and the message board isn't only part of mumsnet! . I actually thought about this personally myself. I am shamed to say I had the very stereotypical view of adhd, didnt belive it was real! Belived parents made it up for money from goverment ! I learnt the hard way. I ended up getting diagnosed with it last year aged 40! Ive clearly learnt and now am not ignorant! I only learnt because i ended up having a daughter diagnosed with very high needs autism at 2 and my other daughter being diagnosed adhd and autism at 5, and that put me on journey of realising why i am way i am and isnt my fault i couldn't do basic things. If i didnt have a speical needs family i would probably still be ignorant and im deeply ashamed ! I just wish people wasnt so ignorant or accept when they might be and want to learn. Because i dont think a lot of people want to not be ignorant. It's easier and , it's uncomfortable to learn u was wrong. I'm gutted I thoughy like that and honestly feel like it was karma having my older daughter being disabled and potentially never being independent. Anyways, the OP from why this post was started, clearly doesn't want to change from ignorant 🙄

Also want to add that with confirmation bias being a very real everyday thing with social media algorithms , where do u suggest people who probably don't actually want to have their opnion changed, get that eduction from?

I quite agree. I have often called out/ reported ableism on here. Woe betide a man having MH problems of a Learning difficulty. Just the other day there was one where a poster was being told she should be able to take herself to xyz place- the Fact she is disabled, doesn't drive and her partner is her carer was ignored by all those wishing to berate her.

Are you suggesting using the Mumsnet moderators is the only available option? What is the "calling out" going to look like, anyway, in your opinion? Moderators will be reading every post on every thread to tell posters where necessary that they are being ignorant?

A key issue that doesn't seem to have been raised yet is that of inference.

Claims/ concerns about people hating people with disabilities (where views are likened to racism, transphobia etc.) are nearly always based on inferences being drawn about the motivations underpinning the views being expressed. A person with hateful views about people with a specific characteristic may well be oblivious to the hate they feel and so deny accusations. However, people can be accused of 'hate' when they do not feel hate. There are many posts on this thread where inferences of 'hate' seem to reflect a big leap.

I think Mumsnet's moderation policy is to delete posts where 'hate' would likely be inferred by 'the man on the Clapham omnibus' (this is a term, used in law, to refer to something akin to an average person). Where there could be different interpretations of what is motivating the expressed view, they let it stand. This seems reasonable to me.

There are widely different views about what is 'reasonable' in relation to adjustments, how much support the state should provide and how much responsibility should rest with individuals, whether diagnostic criteria should be a lot tighter, whether diagnoses/ medical gate keeping should be abandoned to allow for self identification for certain conditions etc. I think all of these view points can be formed from analysis and reasoning that is biased or unduly influenced by lived experience and political and economic positioning, rather than 'hate'.

I think when we are exposed to views that threaten our quality of life and our vision of the type of society we want to live in, it's natural to experience them as persecutory, hateful and want to shut down and limit the expression of those views. However, often there are widely differing positions about who is disadvantages whom and who should be prioritised. Recently, critical theory has gained more traction whereby ideas around power and oppression of marginalised groups has become more mainstream. However, for thousands of years, philosophers have theorised about the fairest ways to distribute power and resources and there are multiple compelling and opposing theories that counter critical theory - none of which are hate based.

I am more scared of living in a society where opposing views aren't allowed to be expressed than in one where they are tightly regulated.

I don't belive peope who are ignorant of other peoples lives, hate them. I just think they don't live that life and have no life experience , so they have views that are shaped by media and other influences.

Also I personally think crital thinking is diminishing , if algorithms Allow people to just watch or read on subjects that they belive , we become lazy to use critical thinking. That's how we have peope very determined in their view, and not accepting anything wrong. I don't belive people should not able to think for themselves, I just think sometimes it would be helpful for people to be shown what it's like for people who have struggles , it's about empathy and compassion and learning that just because u don't need to concern yourself with xy and z, doesn't mean u shouldn't be concerned about people that do, thats not tight regulation. Thats just human decency.

There was real vitriol from parents of autistic children on thread, projecting their own frustration and setting up straw men arguments.
It is ridiculous to suggest posters supporting the OP were ‘ableist’ -utterly bonkers.

I also see the goverment has a lot to answer for when it comes to lack of compassion with disabilities, and it's influence on society. If general public see families as lying about disabilities and 'trying to get more than they deserve'. (Since when should it be acceptable that random people can pick and choose if someone is disabled or disabled enough to provide an accommodation, it cause society to turn on themselves and not question the goverment on why it's cutting funding , in same way parents tend to blame SN parents and schools on children (u can read it on a lot of thread on here where children not coping are disrupting other children, and the other parents blame their parents) that very obviously cannot cope in mainstream but its because goverment has cut funding so badly these children do not have an suitable provision.

The famous quote i think is important. "A true measure of any society is how it treats its most vulnerable "

I agree with points being made to greater need for critical thinking and challenging corresponding 'straw manning'.