Ablesim on mumsnet

[Readyfreddo]

Hi. I’m really interested in whether mumsnet has an interest in and strategy for combatting the collective ableism on this site, particularly (but by no means exclusively) directed and children with and parents of kids with disabilities and additional needs.

As a parenting site I’m sure you’re aware of the massive challenges associated with raising a child with disabilities, and I’m curious whether you’d let threads about any other minority, protected group run as unchecked as you do where the discussion is around children with disabilities.

There’s a thread currently running about an autistic 3 year old queue jumping. I’d encourage the site team to read it for many examples of how problematic these discussions very often are. (In summary - the view seems to be that the three year old is probably faking it and if he isn’t why on earth is he out of the house without proper paperwork)

Wrong post! Sorry!

I am also very interested in this, I've seen it for years too. I would hope as a mums forum you would consider the implications of this, especially as SN mums do need to use forums for help and support at a potentially very vulnerable and isolating time. It is pretty disgusting read.

I'm guessing by deleting a post on here u have clearly read it.

OK, I'll add my two penneth worth.

I saw that thread about the 3 year old. As an Autistic woman with an Autistic child (who never asked for, nor expected 'accommodations' until my DD literally fell apart) I was appalled. What is it about people that makes them resent Autistic people so much?

I don't know why I ask this, because I know the answer. For one, they think most of us are faking. They think there's too much Autism around these days. They don't know why, but by god do they love to speculate.

I've said it before, and I will say it again: it's like going back to the 1970s when people used to almost vomit when they saw my profoundly disabled sister. They used to ask what my mother did wrong to 'get a thing like that'

My sister had Downs Syndrome. She was blind, non verbal and couldn't walk. I thought / hoped we had moved on from that sort of attitude. At the end of the day, what drives that hatred? Fear? Ignorance? I don't know. All I know is that it's incredibly sad and very frustrating. It divides us. It isolates those of us who are affected by disability even further than we already are.

There are very few (if any) threads about disabilities like Cerebral Palsy for example. Nobody hates them. Nobody questions why reasonable adjustments are made for those with that particular disability. So that brings me back to the question: Why do people hate Autistic people so much?

Excellent post @RainbowZebraWarrior I can just about remember a MN campaign called “This is my child” that highlighted those with different challenges and abilities, with the aim of fostering understanding. Those days are long gone and the ableism is now rife.

The majority of posters on the other thread seem to think that my DS’ autism can be cured with some form discipline (if his autism even exists that is - I’m probably just faking it for the generous benefits and lols).

I’m not sure. Like others here I’ve seen threads about Down syndrome where it’s felt like you’re playing whack-a-mole with the amount of vitriol / outdated stereotypes / ridiculousness that’s spouted. Likewise I’ve seen threads about ND very quickly descend into a pile on about whether a child with SEN should even be in childcare, or school, or the supermarket and why can’t they just be taught to be normal?? It’s not the odd wildly offensive comment, it’s post after post after post which portray kids with SEN as a proper underclass who are a burden to the rest of us.

Individual posters being arseholes can be dealt with by other posters. A systemic culture of prejudice which is largely unchecked becomes a site issue.

@RainbowZebraWarrior thanks for sharing that.

My daughter has DS and in the real world things really have moved on, I think. We experience nothing but kindness from people in our lives (and all the usual shite in trying to access support from the state). On here there’s a lot of “well you made your choice (they always assume a prenatal diagnosis) so don’t impose your burden on us” directed at parents of kids with DS, but here isn’t the real world.

Ì find it bewildering and upsetting mnhq have deleted several comments on this thread, but not seen fit to comment on it

I’ve been on mumsnet for many years on and off, I’ve reported comments saying ‘everyone is a little bit autistic’ and saying ‘labels are handed out like sweets’, amongst others, mostly be told that things are subjective and they like to give the benefit of the doubt.

Wow, that is shocking.

The Equality Act 2010 exists for good reason. There are protected characteristics. The law is objective and discriminatory behaviour to disabled people is illegal. These are medical diagnoses: factual matters and not "a matter of opinion".

I do often find that comments which would be deleted immediately if they referred to race, for example, are deleted immediately but discriminatory comments about disability are left to stand. There is no heirarchy of protected characteristics and MNHQ really need to get a grip on their legal responsibilities and make their moderating legally compliant.

You always get people with no legal understanding claiming they are "entitled to express their opinion", and "free speech blah blah" but there is no absolute right to free speech: the law (appropriately) puts limits on it, hence hate speech and discrimination being illegal.

This issue has been raised to MNHQ many times and yet they still enable it to continue by ignoring legitimate reports to mods. I would like to hear how they will review the policies because this has become such a constant problem now largely because they haven't taken effective and appropriate action to ban the posters involved.

The issue is that the thread seems to have turned into a debate about general priority treatment of people with ASD, instead of the way in which the queue jumping happened

I haven't read that thread, but in a wider sense anybody who thinks people with ASD have priority treatment in our society is deluded beyond belief.

Given they are the majority, soceity is designed largely by neurotypical people to suit neurotypical people. People with ASD have to make accommodations for neurotypical preferences, prioritising these above their own needs, all day long, every single day of their lives. Everything they do is judged against these neurotypical preferences. This causes immense distress and often ruins their life chances and health. Then when some tiny, insignificant accommodations are requested that will have no discernable long-term impact whatsoever on the life of a neurotypical person, screeches about "entitlement" erupt.

A clear demonstration in action of the academic research that shows that people with ASD have more empathy on average than neurotypical people, contrary to the long-debunked but still often claimed myth that it's the other way around (which incidentally MNHQ still don't delete even though these contradict a matter of fact documented in peer-reviewed research in academic journals. But apparently random Mumsnet users are "entitled to express their opinion" even when those "opinions" are objectively false, based on discriminatory stereotypes and fall foul of the Equality Act).

I'd really like to see MNHQ take some proper action on this issue finally. There are many vulnerable people on this site who are being harmed by the inappropriate moderation policies.

In the real world I work with adults with LD and I have to say that my two fave client groups are those with Downs and those with Prader Willi - just have some brilliant interactions with them (not always verbal) by and large, and not always in the stereotypical "oh people with Downs are always happy" way (I fully reserve the right of anyone to have a shitty day) but just in terms of humour and the ability to have a good giggle and crack on.

I think there's a bit of a "thing" on the internet at the moment backlashing against some very opinionated and self-diagnosed autistic content creators (who do tend to piss me off a lot as a diagnosed autistic person) and it's in danger of heading into "autist" becoming the next insult of the day (in the same way as terms like retard... spastic... mongol etc all have). That's overspilling in a more moderate form into MN, along with the discourse encouraged by politicians against the "deserving" vs "undeserving" disabled which is priming public opinion for benefit cuts. Add in a side dish of general "Karen-esque" misogyny against mothers of disabled kids whom are viewed as not sitting back on the sidelines while everyone else has a nice life but are making sure their kids have a good childhood as well and it's generally a potentially very shit time for the disabled community as a whole.

I also do think there's an element of baiting those on internet forums who are autistic and at a level where they can communicate on these boards as well - like I mentioned before, it's taken me a hell of a lot longer than it would a neurotypical adult to learn when to mentally put someone in the "fuckwit bucket" report and move on. We see things as more black and white, we have a huge sense of injustice and wanting things to all be in their "right" place physically and morally and we're not renowned for being able to read the room and know when to drop a subject (my boss at work has been briefed to tell me when to let something go as when I dig my heels in I dig myself so deep into a hole I'm in danger of ending up in Australia)

There are very few (if any) threads about disabilities like Cerebral Palsy for example. Nobody hates them. Nobody questions why reasonable adjustments are made for those with that particular disability. So that brings me back to the question: Why do people hate Autistic people so much?

Exactly, @RainbowZebraWarrior

For some unknown reason it seems to be socially acceptable to target one specific group of disabled people when this would never be tolerated with other disabilities.

For example, if I posted a thread now in AIBU about how my autistic child is being treated by her school I can guarantee there would be endless vile comments.

Yet if I posted the same thread but substituted "wheelchair user" or "epileptic" for "autistic" and the reasonable adjustments a child with the former two disabilities would need to attend school, the reponses would be completely different.

Why is this acceptable?

I would like to hear MNHQ's answer. If I don't receive one I may post the two threads, just to prove it. Or would that result in me being banned? Idk.

Re schools I'll be brutally honest. Most adjustments for children wirh physical needs come with another adult to support and don't all fall on the class teacher. Or children are in a specialist setting.

Most adjustments for children with autism come from the class teacher who is one individual and often trying to deal with multiple needs all at once. What you consider reasonable for your child, cannot be replicated across the 7-8 other children with diagnosed needs in the room, and also support the other 20 children. As a teacher in that situation daily, it's not great for anyone and we are trying.

Blame the governments shit funding.

Depends on the autistic child - for DD2 adjustments she has are things like, when they were going to an evacuee theme day, the teacher made a point of warning us and DD in advance that a man was going to shout at them when they got off the bus... clear instructions on the board she can refer back to... giving her a tiny little bit more time to unjumble her thoughts in her head before expecting an answer - adjustments that don't cost a penny (we've paid for the stuff that is improved by equipment ourselves - things like rulers with handles to hold etc) but just some compassion and forethought.

Autism is a neurological condition. It is a physical issue as much as any other medical issue unless you believe that brains are not a physical organ. The same level of funding is available to the school as for any other medical support needs and no, this doesn't have to be from the class teacher.

I'm not going to enter the debate re funding and support, we've been there, done that. But what is clear is the ideologosing and the reality "on the ground" are very different.

Take the post above. That's absolutely do able for one child, or even multiple children with similar need. But you then add in two or three children also with autism but with different needs and suddenly the teacher is overwhelmed. I know the theory, but the reality is different. No one writes an EHCP or support plan with the other children in the class in mind (not should they) but the reality is one human trying their best to meet every need.

Anyway this isn't what the thread is about.

"One human" isn't expected to do it. The EHCP provides further funding to the school to meet the stated needs set out, including additional staff. And even for children without an EHCP, all schools receive specific funding for SEND needs not yet covered by EHCPs.

You were the one who brought up funding.

Most children with diagnoses don't come with an EHCP. The SEN code is very clear that it is the responsibility of the class teacher to meet the need.

Again, the reality on the ground vs what parents think, is very different. One human certainly is expected to do it all ime of multiple schools.

Not my problem - things like clear instructions should be there as a matter of making things as easy as possible for all the kids to access (and making the teachers' life easier as well instead of the endless "what do I do" interruptions).

Good to see that yet another discussion has been hijacked by teachers though.

@Nepmarthiturn I can only assume you have never read one of the countless wheelchair on busses threads, or disabled toilet threads.

Morning, all.

Thanks to everyone who has shared their thoughts on here. There are many different points being made so while we can't respond here to each one individually, please be assured we have been reading carefully and will continue to do so.

To address the OP's main questions, our talk guidelines don't address the specifics of ablesim and disablism but do state that we won't tolerate hate speech of any kind, and we would obviously put disablism and ableism in that bracket. We do regularly delete posts like this and we always take a careful look at posters who post this sort of thing and will take further steps if it's clear they set out to be abusive or inflammatory.

While we strive to apply our rules consistently, we are somewhat limited by the nature of online interactions. We hear that you would like there to be 'something more' than deletions and bannings where these posts occur (and we understand why) but unfortunately, we cannot pre-screen users for their beliefs or intentions before they join Mumsnet, so we are limited to doing what we can in moderating posts and individuals.

We do also sometimes post on a thread where we think it will be useful to point out that posts like this aren't tolerated, but we take your point that perhaps that's something we could do more of, too, so we'll have a discussion about that.

Of course, there may be times when posts are reported as ableist but we don't agree that that is the necessarily the case. We try to let discussion run wherever possible and have to accept that things aren't always completely clear cut; sometimes a post that one person finds offensive isn't breaking talk guidelines. But we will always try to explain those decisions if a reporter wants to get in touch and discuss it.

This might also be a useful moment to highlight that we have been dealing with a persistent troll recently who specifically targets discussions about autism. Despite our best efforts to ban this individual each time they appear, their repeated presence may contribute to a perception of an increase in ableist posts. As with any post like this, we'd encourage people to report, even if they are unsure. We'll delete anything we agree breaks our guidelines and it's usually possible for us to spot this particular troll and others like them once they're brought to our attention.

Very many thanks for this very considered and informative reply, Hebe.

Interesting to know that there has actually been a persistent troll at large. I did wonder.

Thanks Hebe. It's really hard to strike the right balance with moderation of sensitive topics and I think MNHQ gets the balance mostly right on this issue.

I have known about the troll on autism threads and they basically varying ways of talking about a high needs autistic child and their stress and anguish of caring for a high needs disabled child, it's incredibly bizarre that something so specific has definitely been labeled as 'troll' I have been fascinated by this person as they surely require mental health support regardless of weather they actually do have an autistic child. The fact mumsnet insist they are a troll imply they dont have a child which i didnt think mumsnet would be able to know such information. I mean honestly they still needs some mental health support for feeling the need to get attention on this topic! But the whole phenomen and psychology of trolls and discussion around why and what can be done it seems not allowed.

I am a parent with high needs autistic child so I always have read the threads, I'm not offended that they potentially pose as someone in similar situation I'm more concerned about their mental health due to to the trolling .