Ablesim on mumsnet

[Readyfreddo]

Hi. I’m really interested in whether mumsnet has an interest in and strategy for combatting the collective ableism on this site, particularly (but by no means exclusively) directed and children with and parents of kids with disabilities and additional needs.

As a parenting site I’m sure you’re aware of the massive challenges associated with raising a child with disabilities, and I’m curious whether you’d let threads about any other minority, protected group run as unchecked as you do where the discussion is around children with disabilities.

There’s a thread currently running about an autistic 3 year old queue jumping. I’d encourage the site team to read it for many examples of how problematic these discussions very often are. (In summary - the view seems to be that the three year old is probably faking it and if he isn’t why on earth is he out of the house without proper paperwork)

Yep, and that was the bit that I fully admit was hyperbole. But I’m really fed up of reading thread after thread that where the unchallenged (by MN) assumption is that disability is faked, used as an advantage, an annoyance to non-disabled people or that hoping for reasonable or even just basic, compassionate adjustments shows entitlement.

But parents most certainly do lie about things like this to get an advantage or cut the queue. I've known a few people who do this, myself. What you're saying is that we should be naive and automatically believe every one who makes that claim. You seem to think it's not possible no one would use it to their advantage and claim something their child isn't. That is incredibly naive. And considering the boy had absolutely no problems in the queue, well, it's not ableist to make that point. I think you're weakening and disrespecting the meaning of ableism by claiming something that certainly isn't ableist, is.

It was actually about a mother of a NT child refusing to let a disabled child with ASD go first in the queue for a ride.

Agree with this, having read the thread. The person in question seemed rude and entitled, also making an assumption that no one else in the queue had additional needs, based on the Op’s description of the incident.

The issue is that the thread seems to have turned into a debate about general priority treatment of people with ASD, instead of the way in which the queue jumping happened.

And that's okay, surely? She wasn't obliged to do so. Wasn't the OP just stunned by the way the other mother went about it, in any case, and that was the problem.

The point is that the whole thread descended immediately into ableist comments about ND children having to be taught to wait.

Not to mention ableist comments suggesting that the child's mother was actually lying about her child's disability.

Exactly @TheShellBeach

There's been a definite outbreak of "wind them up and watch them go" threads about autism over the last couple of months. Either we've suddenly got a new intake of spectacularly intolerant posters, or there's an Autism troll living under the bridge. People seem to be getting wiser to not responding - but the attacks on autistic people DO snowball very dramatically (and probably satisfyingly to a troll) because you're attacking a group who have very strong, rigidly held ideas and a knowledge of right and wrong in very absolute thinking and struggle more with social norms such as knowing when to let a subject drop (I'm saying this as a diagnosed autistic adult, parent of an autistic child, and veteran of far too many internet arguments when I should have called it quits long before I did do)... absolute feeding fodder for trolling,

OP I am autistic and I deliberately don't click on threads about autism, precisely because the ableism on them really upsets me.

I'm also physically disabled and try to avoid threads about Blue Badges and disabled parking generally, for the same reason.

To add to this, I'm now a pensioner, so I need equally to avoid all the "Pensioners are rich, entitled Tories" threads. I'm not rich (I worked as a nurse all my life) and I've never voted for the Tories but hey ho.

It's getting to a point where the only safe threads on here, from my point of view, are the Litter Tray and FWR.

...........and struggle more with social norms such as knowing when to let a subject drop

OMG yes. This!
I never, ever understand that I should step away from any particular thread.

Why does everything have to be an 'ism'?

The world is full of people with varying degrees of empathy and tolerance and Mumsnet is a microcosm of that. Are we to shut down everyone who is less empathetic than others would like? Wouldn't that be empathetic-ism?

Because empathy isn’t a protected characteristic and disability is?

Are we to shut down everyone who is less empathetic than others would like

Spectacularly missing the point, @gertrudeteacake

We need to shut down everyone who discriminates against and comments adversely about the protected characteristics described in the Equality Act of 2010.

Googling it is a decent starting point. Broadly speaking though, prejudice and discrimination towards people with disabilities.

If you sincerely want to understand more, try the book Demystifying Disability by Emily Ladau. You might find looking into the social model of disability interesting too.

Not giving up your place in a queue because the person demanding it claims their child has a disability is not discrimination. And saying that you agree with that person’s decision is not commenting adversely against the person with the alleged disability.

What a ridiculous comment.

By this definition, being racist would be absolutely fine.

🙄

Agree with this.

Look, we don’t know what theme park it was, but an example of Legoland has an access pass system where you can get a pass for such a thing if you have a disability or medical condition that prevents you from standing in long queues.

The fact that this woman just thought it was ok to merrily queue jump was not ok when systems like this are in place, and it is for THIS reason alone that I can understand why other posters on that thread may think she was not genuine.

This is not a site set up to support a particular sub demographic. Its a site where people can, largely, express their views and debate with others.

That can be very discomfiting when people express views that appal you. I am regularly appalled by views expressed on here, and I am sure others are appalled by my views. But overall, I welcome that. I find it really valuable to be exposed to those views and to be able to challenge others' views and have my views challenged.

There was a post the other day about a child who seemed to have the same condition as mine. Plenty of appalling comments about how the child needed to be punished out of this behaviour and was choosing it. But plenty more from parents who had similar children and were offering advice. In the end the OP got their child diagnosed and they did have the condition. I hope that some of the ' punish the child' parents learnt from that. That would be less likely to learn from it if MN were a deletion- happy site.

We can see even from this thread that some people call others transphobic and those throwing this label around will be called misogynistic by others.
People on this thread are distressed by the marriage support thread, yet posters on that site regard it as a lifeline.

Some people's views offend us, that doesn't mean the best course is silencing those views.

Some people's life experiences offend us, but that does not mean their life experiences should be extinguished from public records.

I am glad Mumsnet exists as a rare and valuable site where people from all backgrounds and experiences can talk, even if that is very challenging at times.

Its fine if some find that too hard. There are other online spaces that are explicitly support resources for particular demographics that might better suit them. Many of use will use those spaces in addition to Mumsnet.

But MN is a space for everyone, not just those with particular political beliefs or particular life experiences. And I am glad of it.

What a brilliantly put post.

@Niceplaces that’s a really thoughtful and thought provoking post. Stuff around children with disabilities does seem to be particularly vitriolic on here though. It seems bizarre to me that a site that says its aim is to “Make parents' lives easier by pooling knowledge, advice and support” is happy to let uninformed and damaging stuff about parenting children with disabilities run wild on certain threads.

I think plenty of comments here are evidence of the OP's point, because they're claiming the queue-jumping post was about an entitled mother demanding to jump the queue. It wasn't. It clearly stated a toddler ran in front of another in the queue and the mother said, "he's autistic, you don't mind, do you?" i.e. politely explained and asked.

Perhaps not overt ableism, but deliberate exaggeration or misrepresentation of a disabled child's mother to depict her as pushy and demanding.

It’s increasingly like the Mail or Express on this website.

Exceot this website attacks older people too.

Is there an internet equivalent of Ofcom?

Its like disabled, older and menopausal women don’t count t at all anymore. Even though the equality acts exists.

It makes me feel sick. I tried to report it to the Equalities Commission once. But they didn’t deal with internet forums

Free speech above all eh?

Is it not pushy? Or otherwise expecting or asking for something that really isn't due? Because presumably there was the option to take the child back to their spot in the queue...

There's also a thread running about a woman's husband suspected autistic, and her brother and sister were laughing at him because he was excited about an activity, and the comments on it are awful, saying it's fine to laugh at "odd" people. It's blatant ableism and it should be dealt with. As an autistic woman I find it very hard to read a lot of comments on this site. There's some awful views being expressed.

It’s a moderated site though.

Theure quick enough to police racism.