Page 10 | Pregnant people?! It's 'women'

BIWI · 2023-09-19T13:57:49+00:00

Two links to surveys today, from Kings College London and Cardiff University. Both surveys wanting to speak to 'pregnant people'. It's *women* who get pregnant and give birth. Male members of our society are unable to conceive, grow and birth babies. Please, please, please - why are you accepting these requests? Do you not read them first? (Especially seeing as you allow them to post their links for free). I'm appalled that Mumsnet is now complicit in erasing the word 'woman'.

RedToothBrush · 19/09/2023 20:01

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2023 19:54

Betty Boop is a woman, Lara Croft is a woman, Millie Tant is a woman

They're not actually women, though, they're fictional characters. And if you have a life sized cardboard cut out of Peter Andre that you say is your husband and kiss every night, you're not actually married to the real Peter Andre.

They are also extreme caricatures of women based on sexist stereotypes of women.

Two are over sexualised and have bodies that no woman could possibly have in real life and pander to the desires of men.

The other is an unflattering representation of an apparent left wing feminist who is supposedly angry because she can't get a shag.

I am not sure it's possible to pick three names which illustrate sexism and the fact that men view women through the lens of fuckability and availability more acutely if you tried.

Women are not caricatures. Nor are they defined by their fuckability status.

RedToothBrush · 19/09/2023 20:02

Cailleachian · 19/09/2023 19:55

These three are easily recognisable as women. People would never suggest that Betty Boop was a man or non-binary, but she clearly has a gender. People recognise and respond to the gender.

What she does not have is a sex...because she is a fictional character and therefore does not exist in the material world.

These characters have exactly the same genital configuration as He-man (just strokes on a piece of paper, no actual flesh involved),

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As I say, they correspond to not so great sexist stereotypes which are reductive to actual women.

HTH.

Peregrina · 19/09/2023 20:03

People who have male-to-female gender-reassignment surgery retain a prostate.

I didn't know that. So we should definitely be talking about people who need to check their prostates for cancer. I won't be bothering to check mine, even though I am a person, because I know I am a woman and haven't got one to check.

Not entirely relevant but when the chips are down transwomen are quite happy to be men. E.g. when hereditary peerages were debated in the Lords it was decided that men who identified as transwomen would keep their place in the line of succession. They wouldn't be bumped out of line and replaced by say an older sister, who wasn't allowed to inherit the title, being female, or a younger brother because he was now the next male in line. Oh no, of course not.

WhileMyGuitarGentlyWeeps · 19/09/2023 20:10

EstieGreenwood · 19/09/2023 19:17

I’m a pregnant woman who is puking my guts up every single day after having experienced loss and TTC troubles and the last thing I care about in the world is the term ‘pregnant people’. Trans men can get pregnant. Would you prefer they say ‘pregnant women and pregnant trans men?’ Honestly, don’t you PEOPLE have better things to think about?

Edited

@EstieGreenwood

Congratulations on being pregnant. And I'm sorry you've experienced loss and TTC troubles. But I don't know why you think you being pregnant and not caring about people saying 'pregnant people' makes you think you can slate and deride women who DO care about this! With snarky passive-aggressive comments like 'do you PEOPLE have nothing better to do?'

I have been pregnant too, (and given birth/raised a child,) and so have many other WOMEN, you're not unique. And I (like many other WOMEN) am Royally pissed off with the 'pregnant people' and 'uterus owner' bullshit. Anybody and everybody is quite entitled to be really pissed off with this too. Including women who have never been pregnant.

Your opinion is no more valid just because you are currently pregnant.... Other women can be pissed off and annoyed by it, without being derided by you because you are NOT pissed off and annoyed by it.

If you're not angry about this, then you're NOT paying attention!

ILikeDungs · 19/09/2023 20:16

Cailleachian · 19/09/2023 19:43

Well, I guess the question is if "woman" is not socially constructed, then how does anyone know that they are one.

Because woman comes with a whole load more baggage than female. Female is a material state of being, but woman is something that is not material. Betty Boop is a woman, Lara Croft is a woman, Millie Tant is a woman, yet none of these three have a body at all.

Woman is layered on top of being female as a male constructed vision of how female people's existence should be constrained. Woman is the prison that males put female people in.

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Well, I guess the question is if "woman" is not socially constructed, then how does anyone know that they are one.

What's it like to be a bat? (Thomas Nagel) I will never know, because I am a woman, not a bat.

Betty Boop is a woman, Lara Croft is a woman, Millie Tant is a woman, yet none of these three have a body at all.

These are fictional characters. Not understanding your point.

Femininity is layered on top of being female as a male constructed vision of how female people's existence should be constrained. Femininity is the prison that males put female people in. There, FIFY.

Woman is just adult human female.

Cailleachian · 19/09/2023 20:26

Women are not caricatures. Nor are they defined by their fuckability status.This is where you are wrong.
Women are regularly caricatured, not only in some TRA dressup, but in everything from Karens to WAGs, and women are absolutely defined by their fuckability status, we still distinguish in honorifics women who are available for fucking and those who are off limits because another man has exclusive fucking rights.

Women do not control the narrative of what women are. Women is a patriarchal term imposed on female people to control their behaviour and mark out the members of the species that are capable of reproduction.

I can understand young female children running headlong into the arms of the trans cult because older feminists say that they cant be female unless they agree to become a woman, with all that entails in today's pornified world.

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 20:29

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 19/09/2023 19:37

Yes, beats me why Parliament wasted time getting an entire Act drawn up by lawyers. It could all have been covered by just telling everybody to be nice to everyone else. Job done.

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I'm not arguing against equality legislation, just about how words are used- as others have said, language is important and influential.

StephanieSuperpowers · 19/09/2023 20:30

...so women should just abandon it in case it makes someone feel sad, regardless of how women feel?

ILikeDungs · 19/09/2023 20:31

I can understand young female children running headlong into the arms of the trans cult because of porn culture, not because of feminists who say women are adult human females.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/09/2023 20:32

ah well women are just support humans after all - god forbid we should have wants & needs of our own

AnSolas · 19/09/2023 20:32

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 19:10

Some people who espouse transphobic views are also homophobic, racist, disablist and sexist or some delightful combination of the above.

Some people who would never consider themselves homophobic, racist, disablist and sexist seem to come out with some horribly transphobic things from time to time on MN, so on that issue seem to be in alignment with people in category 1.

Hence why I made the point.

I've read some horrific anti-women bigotry also on the part of some TRAs, mostly elsewhere on the internet and not on MN.

I wouldn't like to consider myself a bed fellow with any of the above, personally.

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Do you want a hand clap?

👏👏👏

Be pure of thought and allow the words like bleeder, breeder and barren be used in law to replace women.

You ideology is ignore that only women can be pregnant all the social disadvantages that biology brings with it.

What I would say is while I have some concerns over male bodied people being allowed to be in female only spaces, I am dismayed to see how the right wing anti-gay, misogynistic, racist, PC gorn mad types have managed to recruit people who would never be racist etc in their lives to be transphobic and go on about women being erased because of the use of a word.

This ^ was you trying to shame women into pretending that special men should have womens rights

You make an uneducated claim about "the law" in the UK, the law recognises sex based rights.
it is the sex based rights which differ for women engaged in sexual reproduction and for men engaged in sexual reproduction because both sex have differrent needs.

your own bigotry is showing when you decide that people who dont agree with you must be bigots who are too stupid to understand the harm in removing the meaning of the word woman.

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 20:33

If you're not angry about this, then you're NOT paying attention!

Nonsense. We can chose what to be angry about, I'd have a big list of things before being upset at being called a person instead of a woman.

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 20:35

Do you want a hand clap?

👏👏👏

Be pure of thought and allow the words like bleeder, breeder and barren be used in law to replace women.

What on earth are you wanging on about now? Oh dear.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2023 20:40

I'm not arguing against equality legislation, just about how words are used- as others have said, language is important and influential.

Yes, the point being made by many of the women you disagree with. Women need their own language to make sense of our experience as a disadvantaged group's , too.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2023 20:40

Group

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2023 20:43

They are also extreme caricatures of women based on sexist stereotypes of women.

Two are over sexualised and have bodies that no woman could possibly have in real life and pander to the desires of men.

The other is an unflattering representation of an apparent left wing feminist who is supposedly angry because she can't get a shag.

I am not sure it's possible to pick three names which illustrate sexism and the fact that men view women through the lens of fuckability and availability more acutely if you tried.

Women are not caricatures. Nor are they defined by their fuckability status.

Excellent points, @RedToothBrush

AnSolas · 19/09/2023 20:43

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 19:17

What is the point of this nonsense? People who give birth are women. They are adult human females. They can be called Dave and dress like a teddy boy. They can wear men’s shoes on their (size 5) feet. They can even take hormones to give them a bum fluff beard and male pattern baldness, but if they have the equipment that enables them to get pregnant they’re a woman. Being pregnant and giving birth is something only a woman - an adult human female - can do.

Do you regularly find trans people to tell them of these kind of views?

If not transphobic, it just seems rude, like going up to gay male couples and pointing out they can't have children and so on. I just wish there were a trans person or several here to give their views.

Why did you choose a two men (gay male) for your couple?

Two women (gay female couple) cant get each other pregnant either.....

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/09/2023 20:46

Women do not control the narrative of what women are. Women is a patriarchal term imposed on female people to control their behaviour and mark out the members of the species that are capable of reproduction.

No, it's just the word for an adult female human. A doe is an adult female deer. Or rabbit. A buck is an adult male rabbit.

What you're talking about, is the sexist stereotypes that have been imposed on women. They don't have to be the story. Break free!

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 20:49

AnSolas · 19/09/2023 20:43

Why did you choose a two men (gay male) for your couple?

Two women (gay female couple) cant get each other pregnant either.....

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No but it's considerably more straighforward.

AccidentallyWesAnderson · 19/09/2023 20:50

So much transphobia on Mumsnet but so little any examples.

AnSolas · 19/09/2023 20:52

EstieGreenwood · 19/09/2023 19:17

I’m a pregnant woman who is puking my guts up every single day after having experienced loss and TTC troubles and the last thing I care about in the world is the term ‘pregnant people’. Trans men can get pregnant. Would you prefer they say ‘pregnant women and pregnant trans men?’ Honestly, don’t you PEOPLE have better things to think about?

Edited

Dear me, you sound like a rather angry birthing body human.

I do hope you have many happy birthing body human days ahead of you🌻

RedToothBrush · 19/09/2023 20:53

Women do not control the narrative of what women are. Women is a patriarchal term imposed on female people to control their behaviour and mark out the members of the species that are capable of reproduction.

Erm....why shouldn't women be able to define themselves? Why are they merely support humans?

Yes we can reproduce, but that shouldn't mean we don't have own agency.

Who exactly is saying the word woman is imposed? Not me. Not others on this thread. It's just material reality. That's not about controlling women.

The bit about controlling women is the first sentence where you say that women don't get to define themselves.

Women can reproduce. Saying that is not about ownership nor ideology. It's saying they can reproduce.

Men coming along and saying nope, now women are just the humans with high heels, lumpy bits on their chest for the enjoyment of others and a bit of lipstick, rather than the reality of reproduction (or lack of) on our bodies is where women lose their own power and agency.

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 20:54

So much transphobia on Mumsnet but so little any examples.

I think few was the determiner you were looking for.

I wouldn't know, I've hidden that part of the boards as soon as you were able to, a year or so ago at least. There was certainly plenty of it back then.

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 20:57

Women can reproduce. Saying that is not about ownership nor ideology. It's saying they can reproduce.

I'm not sure I can, I'm 48 years old. My DM certainly can't, nor my MIL.

EasternStandard · 19/09/2023 20:57

actualpuffins · 19/09/2023 20:54

So much transphobia on Mumsnet but so little any examples.

I think few was the determiner you were looking for.

I wouldn't know, I've hidden that part of the boards as soon as you were able to, a year or so ago at least. There was certainly plenty of it back then.

Woman = adult human female isn’t transphobia though

Or are you arguing it is?