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Original poster

Pregnant people?! It's 'women'

405 replies

BIWI · 19/09/2023 14:57

Two links to surveys today, from Kings College London and Cardiff University. Both surveys wanting to speak to 'pregnant people'.

It's women who get pregnant and give birth. Male members of our society are unable to conceive, grow and birth babies.

Please, please, please - why are you accepting these requests? Do you not read them first? (Especially seeing as you allow them to post their links for free).

I'm appalled that Mumsnet is now complicit in erasing the word 'woman'.

OP posts:

EasternStandard · 20/09/2023 18:29

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 18:01

Its hardly academic theory - the Radicalesbians and Solanas werent professors or something.

@MillicentTrilbyHiggins feminism as "equality between the sexes" is what men tell us feminism is. That is not feminism, feminism is centring female people.

Take abortion, it is perfectly equal for people of neither sex to be prosecuted for having an abortion, both men and women treated completely equally. Only equality is then a shit show for female people.

On the other hand, the right to bodily autonomy is critical for all people and it is for all people to determine whether or not they want to continue with a pregnancy. That is also equal.

Male people will always argue for the version of equality that suits them best.

‘Male people’ at least you’re consistent

I really hope we don’t have this mangling of language.

Men and women works fine. It does not mean to me what it does to you.

AnSolas · 20/09/2023 18:33

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 14:29

No, I'm saying that some people are excluded from the generic category of "people" because they are female - abortion isnt a human rights issue for example, but a women's rights issue.

I see a shit tonne of posters on demos saying "woman = adult human female", yet here we are saying actually "woman = adult human female and children who have need of pregnancy services" because we are defining pregnancy services as something that only women can access, therefore if you are 12 suddenly you become a woman because of what a man has done to you.

Why does she need women's pregnancy rights (ie the pregnancy rights of an adult female)? Why do 12 year olds have to be considered adults to get the healthcare that they need and is appropriate to them in their situation as a female child who is pregnant?

Female people are people.

Male people are people who intrinsically lack the human capacity of conception, gestation and birthing and thus have no experience of significant parts of the human condition.

Show quote history

No, I'm saying that some people are excluded from the generic category of "people" because they are female - abortion isnt a human rights issue for example, but a women's rights issue.

What are you trying to say here^ ?

The law could allow " people to have abortion" rights. But societies which allow abortion recognise that the creation of a new human takes to genetic inputs.

The human which can grow a new human was given a generic term woman, the one which cant is given a generic term man as both humans have to reach a mimimum level of human phyical development to be able to produce the physical biological material needed to create a new human.

The society could have made up two new words eg a "jiejd" could be the human who can grow a new human and a "djeij" could be the one which can not grow a new human.

Therefore as a djeij can not grow a new human they dont get abortion rights

But a jiejd who can grow a new human will get abortion rights

We as a society recognise that abortion removes jiejd and djeij from the bodies of sexual mature jiejd so as a society we recognise that jiejd rights are specific rights that only jiejd need.

But rather than twisting language or making up new words the word used is woman which has a meaning "of the sex class which can grow a new human and having reached the sexual maturity be able to grow a new human".

then to avoid any legal argument will add a definition about the law not being age restricted.

this prevents legal debates as society has the common legal principle that humans who have not attained a specific lifespan do not need to have the same Rights as the humans who have

MillicentTrilbyHiggins · 20/09/2023 18:39

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 18:01

Its hardly academic theory - the Radicalesbians and Solanas werent professors or something.

@MillicentTrilbyHiggins feminism as "equality between the sexes" is what men tell us feminism is. That is not feminism, feminism is centring female people.

On the other hand, the right to bodily autonomy is critical for all people and it is for all people to determine whether or not they want to continue with a pregnancy. That is also equal.

Male people will always argue for the version of equality that suits them best.

Is it? Men don't tell me what feminism is or isn't. Or what equality is.

Your abortion example doesn't even make sense. Men can't have abortions.

AnSolas · 20/09/2023 19:48

Cailleachian · 20/09/2023 14:45

Gonna come back to De Beauvoir here "women are not born but made".

People give birth to people. Some of those people will have the capacity to birth other people, some will not; some of those who do not have that capacity can and will be identified at the time of birth.

The ones who know from their earliest years that they do not have this capacity and cannot aquire it organise society in their interests.

The definition of woman that is being pushed - as an socially and sexually mature person who is assumed to have the capacity to conceive birth and gestate and the automatic inclusion of a sexually and socially immature person into that category once their ability is proven reduces female people only to that which breeds, and by implication, that which can be fucked.

That 12 year old got made into a woman, by being raped. A man changed her status from "girl" to "woman" by raping her, because only women can be pregnant.

Female people are people. This is the hill in the TERF war on which I will die.

That 12 year old got made into a woman, by being raped. A man changed her status from "girl" to "woman" by raping her, because only women can be pregnant.

What Utter Tripe

What happens it the "MAN" is a 12 year old?

She changes his status from a "boy" to a "man" by raping him, because only an man can get a woman pregnant?

Your "female people" word game is reducing 50%+ of the people to barren2, breeder or bleeder people and adding to the ideology that men can be barren2, breeder or bleeder people too.

AnSolas · 20/09/2023 20:20

Graciebobcat · 20/09/2023 14:53

To gather the data they have to either make a special section for this small group of men or design the data collection process around pretending that its not just women who growing new humans.

I thought you, or perhaps other posters, had spent three pages of this thread arguing that trans men were women.

I'm just trying to discuss how all women can be included whether or not they have decided to be a man, which I think is an important issue, as a feminist myself.

If a woman decided to have a baby (or not) why is her voice more important if she claims to be a man?

Why should women's services be renamed and women themselves be renamed because that woman decided that being recognised as a man elevates her status above other women.

I'm not saying that anyone should have elevated status, but that they should not be or feel excluded. Even if it's a tiny minority of one or two people out of 50,000.

Show quote history

You understand that these special women have to be classed as men or at least not-women?

The researchers decided that women was not an inclusive word as it implied (flat out correctly classes your 1 or 2 women as women). That the research has to be organised around the of sample not being a sample of pregnant women.

That the data sets are
a) pregnant women,
b) special pregnant not-women,
c) partners female or male of pregnant women,
d) partners female or male of special pregnant non-women

If it was just about "women" the researchers would put a footnote to explain that collecting data from the special pregnant not-women is not relevant because of how tiny that data set is.

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