To be bored of the trans hate?

[DaisyUpsy]

Ok, there are extremists (like the punch people in the face person), extremists can be found in many areas of life but is anyone else fed up of the trans stuff constantly being dragged up?

I've seen some ridiculous statements on here recently. Everything gets something added related to trans when it's totally irrelevant. It's getting boring. Trans extremists are not the norm so can we stop pretending they are?

Yes I have.
Refusing to use factually incorrect pronouns to suit someone’s delusions, is not the same as using language that could potentially cause the deaths of marginalised women.

1. Mumsnet isn't a hive mind. Not a monolith. So there is no "according to mumsnet" about SAHM (and by extension Mumsnet can't be transphobic either)

1. Start a convo about SAHM vs WOHM and see the ensuing bun fight between extremists.

Meanwhile we (I'm going to speak for 2nd wave frminists here) shake our heads and wonder where it all went wrobg

Of course they don't have to. People on the other side don't have to concede either. It's just two groups getting further and further polarized.
People have to chose the hill they want to die on.

Of course they don't have to. People on the other side don't have to concede either.

One side is based on reality, the other isn't. Everyone should be able to say what they want.

But again, pronoun mandates are about control. And i asked but you might have missed it, @NewNameNigel, do you have any red lines or are you prepared to use whatever pronouns people demand, however impractical it is? What about when they change from day to day, like some peoples do?

Problem is both sides believe themselves to be the ones seeing reality.

Do you think it is actually possible to reach an end to this?
A state where everyone feels that they can live their life in the way they want to and feel respected and protected?

Why should women reorder their language to appease?

It’s us who lose out. If a female plays in men’s sports they’ll just be likely to get hurt. Ditto spaces

If we allow access males into our spaces we get hurt

So why should we accept she?

I’m not going to go out of my way to let someone know I’m using he not she, they might not even know, but I’d not use she for a male to my dc for instance.

If you could see someone was obviously male would you use she to dc if you have them?

I hate the fact that our university friends barely seem to have a 'daughter' left between them. So many transitions in late teens.

We're a geeky bunch with bright, nervy, often neurodiverse children who are the classic victims of all this.

I don't hate the daughters. I'm very saddened for them.

It's extremely rare to see anyone on the pro-trans side openly criticise the extremists. Which leads to the impression that the whole movement is extremist.

Meanwhile people like JK Rowling whose views are actually quite moderate are widely treated as if they were extremists. Again, suggesting there isn't much room for moderates as far as the pro-trans side are concerned.

Problem is both sides believe themselves to be the ones seeing reality.

Do you go through life believing nothing is true, it's just a matter of perception?

It’s not comparable though.
If people feel uncomfortable with normal clear language you help them. You don’t change the language to suit their disordered beliefs.

For example my daughter has an eating disorder. It makes her uncomfortable that I don’t see her as fat, and I won’t ever accept her belief that she’s fat. I’m supportive, I avoid conflict because it doesn’t help anyone, but I am very clear that how she sees herself is not reality, and that it would be very dangerous to validate how she feels.

Someone who is so dysphoric they can’t use the word vagina or woman is welcome to
use their own words in their own sphere, but it’s wrong to project this onto the whole population of women, especially when it muddies up the clarity that we need. It’s wrong for all the women losing our language, and it’s wrong to validate delusional beliefs (even though everyone has the right to have them!). Someone who is uncomfortable at being female needs help, not drugs, surgery, and a whole bunch of people telling them they can be a man, because that will never be true, they will find out that it’s never going to be true, and that is really fucking cruel.

How is a changing sex a biological reality?

I hate the fact that our university friends barely seem to have a 'daughter' left between them. So many transitions in late teens.

We're a geeky bunch with bright, nervy, often neurodiverse children who are the classic victims of all this.

I don't hate the daughters. I'm very saddened for them.

That is very sad. What are we doing to girls.

Just want to say a huge huge thank you to all the fantastically smart women on here who are able to argue so clearly and compellingly for women’s rights. I hope you realise how many women stand firmly behind you.

Someone who is uncomfortable at being female needs help, not drugs, surgery, and a whole bunch of people telling them they can be a man, because that will never be true, they will find out that it’s never going to be true, and that is really fucking cruel.

Yes, it is cruel. Stop giving these children/young people the mistaken impression that everyone will accept them as something they are not. Manage their expectations and be kind to them by being realistic.

But if the “two sides” keeps being dragged out the women who die on that hill are largely going to be vulnerable women who need the clarity of language that’s being wiped out!

Apologies I am not well aware of this matter. Transmen chest feed? What do they feed?

It's easy to explain yourself when you are talking about basic facts and logic. This is why TRAs have decided that it's offensive to even ask a question, because they can't answer it.

Look at every interview about the trans debate, they're always the ones screaming and talking about extreme examples. They try their best to come up with 'facts' but when their whole ideology is based on feelings, there simply aren't any.

Apologies I am not well aware of this matter. Transmen chest feed? What do they feed?

A "trans man" is female. This is a male person who identifies as a woman.

This happened to a friend's daughter. Though I think they've handled it strangely as they blog every detail of their family life but the daughter, who is now trans, is never mentioned by name and is usually pictured in the background.

If someone asks 'is that 'previous name' they're ignored.

I know of one other family whose daughter transitioned, but they handling it quite differently and in a more open way.

What was the bewiderness quote about 'lets meet in the middle said the man as he takes a step back'?

Women referring to people with sex based pronouns isnt some wild idea created in FWR in 2009, its english language. Men insisting women have to call them she is very new.

Why do some people get to take an extreme view, and everyone else has to rush to the middle to compromise?

In general day to day conversation with trans people going about their lives I see no reason not to use the pronouns people have asked for. I have worked with a few trans people and did not find this in the slightest bit difficult. They were just normal people and if someone did slip up and make a mistake they accepted it as a mistake even if it triggered some dysphoria in them.

I think that if people want to put pronouns in email signatures and bios it is up to them and it is odd to berate them and accuse them of trying to compel speech or being incapable of critical thinking as I have seen on here. Equally, no one should be forced to do it if they don't want to.

I have never known anyone who changes pronouns day to day . Have you actually met anyone like this or is this just something you've seen on Tik Tok or heard people talk about? I guess if I was to come across this I would expect them to wear a badge or something to let people know and I would try and follow this but I don't think this a situation that 99% of people on here will have been in. Would be interested to know if anyone on here has actually met anyone in person who changes pronouns on the daily.

I guess a red line for me would be in cases where someone has inflicted male violence on someone and then insists that they are called she. Interestingly I saw a podcast by a trans YouTuber called Kat Blaque who also struggles with this and she is transwoman.

I have never said it is.
A lot of assumptions are being made about it me because I disagree with some of the narrative.

Thank you, OP, for posting this. I am not just bored of the trans hate here I’m horrified by it. I am a lifeling feminist myself and I have had to hide the entire feminism board here at mumsnet in order not to be depressed by the endless twi minutes hate and hysteria expressed—to the detriment of actual women’s issues like fair pay, health care, prison reform, children’s safety etc…

Problem is both sides believe themselves to be the ones seeing reality.

Problem is one side is coming from a point of biological reality, have facts and research on their side.

The other side has “no debate”, threats, and spurious information about clownfish spouted by captured organisations winning brownie points from the government thanks to Stonewall.

This isn’t about two sides. This is about a quasi religious ideology riding on the back of LGB rights and people unquestioningly going along with it because “be kind”, and because it’s apparently progressive. For most people, if they allow themselves to partake of wrongthink, as soon as they do some research the wheels fall off the whole woman-hating, safeguard blocking movement!