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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

To be bored of the trans hate?

1000 replies

DaisyUpsy · 10/07/2023 09:54

Ok, there are extremists (like the punch people in the face person), extremists can be found in many areas of life but is anyone else fed up of the trans stuff constantly being dragged up?

I've seen some ridiculous statements on here recently. Everything gets something added related to trans when it's totally irrelevant. It's getting boring. Trans extremists are not the norm so can we stop pretending they are?

OP posts:
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NewNameNigel · 10/07/2023 13:48

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 10/07/2023 13:30

It is particularly disheartening to see it from people who claim to care about women's rights though.

//

Why though? Why hold women to a higher standard?

Erm, because as a black women I expect to be included in feminism because it is meant to be for my rights. It has nothing to do with holding women to a higher standard than men.

I didn't think that was something I'd have to spell out.

Meeting · 10/07/2023 13:48

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2023 13:47

I also believe that too many young teens (who may have mental health issues) are jumping onto the trans train in the hopes it'll magically fix their problems when what they actually need is mental health support and a hobby.

I agree with this.

With catastrophic consequences. Just read some of the things 'de-trans' people are saying happened to them.

Hepwo · 10/07/2023 13:49

ItsFunToBeAVampire · 10/07/2023 12:54

Is praising someone unpleasant really the equivalent of encouraging violence?

I don't recall her praising him, I recall she highlighted an issue and said that if this is what happening it's not unrealistic to expect people to agree with what he's saying.

That is not praise.

When you have to reframe something like this to make it into a negative you are being dishonest.

LonginesPrime · 10/07/2023 13:49

Cornettoninja · 10/07/2023 09:59

Extremists at both ends bore me at this point.

This is a relatively new social phenomenon (at least the visibility of it and the medical options available). It’s being reduced to ‘you’re the baddie’, ‘I know you are, what am I?’ when actually we need balanced voices in the debate over emotive ones.

I definitely lean more towards what GC is defined as but like buggery would I associate myself with them. Utterly blinkered and absent of any grey areas. As are the trans activists.

Is not a new phenomenon though - misogyny has been around since time began.

One of the reasons many feminists are wary of accepting the grey areas is because this isn't the first time we've been told to hold our horses and not be greedy with demanding too many rights at once.

We have been told for centuries that we should be grateful for what we are given and that if we're not careful or if we get too greedy or act ungrateful, then those rights that have been generously bestowed on us by men can just as easily be snatched away.

Many of us, myself included, actually did seek compromise and gave way on the gray areas. I was the one going round my office "educating" colleagues and managers on trans rights and facilitating people's smooth transitions. I couldn't understand why other women were drawing these hard lines and why they had such strong objections to simple things like letting trans colleagues use the women's toilets when we knew they were nice.

But over time I saw my rights being eroded, in law, in policy, in social situations where I had to go along with sexist opinions I saw as damaging to women without saying anything as it's a trans person saying it.

And I realised that those grey areas weren't actually part of a no-man's land in the middle that we could all claim as mutual ground. The grey areas were actually converted former-women's spaces that men were pushing into. And women are simply expected to move over and make room, as quietly as possible, because that's what women have always been expected to do.

StefanosHill · 10/07/2023 13:50

smooththecat · 10/07/2023 13:40

In a way YABU to expect any kind of nuance on this hellsite. You have to go elsewhere for proper debate and discussion, this is an outlet for emotions and it is Daily Mail tinged (see many coy DM links, ‘oh but I wouldn’t, oh but I must’). When people with actual expertise on anything brave this site, they are often given the internet equivalent of a public flogging.

Where do you go to get pro women discussion?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2023 13:51

When you have to reframe something like this to make it into a negative you are being dishonest.

Yes, when I posted myself I assumed it was something like that but I didn't want to derail my wider point.

Appleofmyeye2023 · 10/07/2023 13:51

Op, a significant minority of girls have ALWAYS hated the process of turning into a women. I was one of those back in the 1980s .

if someone had come along to me and told me there was a reason why I felt that, and wanted to be a “boy” I’d have jumped at the chance. I’d have to embraced the chest binders aged 9 , When I was first to develop breast and teased at school, and when they kept growing catcalled by blokes at age 12. I didn’t want periods. I cried and cried at my first period. I hated skirts, showing my body. I started taking sickies when are head of PE (male) decided girls needed to strip completely and shower after every sports lesson . I was petrified and became ill at thought of stripping off. Still hate it. I wasn’t confident, I was shy, felt stupid, and probably in retrospect was a bit depressed
this is not a rare thing. It is so common. Probably because girls puberty hits first before boys, they take the brunt of exposure of changing bodies, and if you’re one of the girl earlier developers it’s even worse. As soon as girls hit puberty changing body shapes put it out there for the whole world to see you are now sexually available for sex (theoretically) and you are constantly under male gaze for next 40 years.

but I, like the vast majority of my peer group overcame these feeling as we got into our twenties, and by late twenties most of us didn’t much think about it, and then later a lot (but not all) did want to have a family and child of our own .

im not a feminine women. I studied STEM subjects, worked in male dominated industry all my life. Never wore a skirt unless it’s to a wedding or posh event and hate it. I don’t paint my nails, wear makeup regularly, and these days I have very manly hair 🤣🤷🏼‍♀️. I wasn’t even a particularly maternal mum. But I am still very comfortable that I’m a women. I birthed 2 dc, breast fed them till they were 9 months old, have now gone through a menopause - and have a list as long as my arm of “female” biological related illnesses and conditions - this is how I know and accept I’m a women- not because I’m following feminine gender stereotypes.

point is, you can support your trans child without taking them down a route of physical adjustments. Please stop supplying chest binders. And don’t go down the medication route. Yes, I accept your child is unhappy, but this won’t make them happy for rest of their life. They needs to accept their body as it is, and as it changes. they doesn’t need to be feminine , they can still dress and act as a typical masculine child - no where does it say they have to keep to gender stereotypes. But dear god, please don’t assume that this puberty struggle they is going through, is a confirmation that they are trans for the rest of their lives. They might be, they might be a lesbian, they might just be a confused and frightened young woman , give it time, support but don’t encourage and positively affirm. Don’t make it a big deal- it isn’t , a very large proportion of girls go through same feelings and have always done so.

you sound on this post hugely defensive, and gunning for a fight. I’d be asking myself a lot of questions of why I have so much righteous indignation towards women who believe the concept of gender is holding BOTH men and women back, holding us to gender stereotypes we would all benefit form shaking off . Your child should not have to deal with any pressures on how they look, whether they would rather be a girl or a boy, whether they feel the way they think and act is socially more associated with the opposite sex. They should just be able to be “them” . No more, no less . And not try to fit into anyone else’s preconceived notions of how they “should” be

Cucucucu · 10/07/2023 13:51

Xoxoxoxoxoxox · 10/07/2023 10:38

There is a thread running now where people are saying trans women who chest feed need their hard drives checked

There are countless people on here who regularly try and imply trans women are sexual offenders

its disgusting

That’s because the transwomen who was chest feeding their baby on a bus also released pictures of themselves using nipple clamps.
It is also a fair question to ask if it is in the child’s best interest that this is happening when formula feeding is available - I had to use formula milk to some extent for my own children.
Even when using extremely high cocktails of drugs men can only lactate minuscule quantities and the effects of the drugs in high doses have never been tested on babies.

So basically you think if a woman uses nipple clamps or any sex toys related to nipples and breastfeeds she is also a sexual predator ? Because just like any woman who can still have pleasure with their nipples and breastfeed and completou separate both you think trans cannot ? Give your head a wobble . And remember induced lactation is also used on other occasions are people who need to use surrogates .

IAmSalmaFuckingHayek · 10/07/2023 13:52

NewNameNigel · 10/07/2023 13:37

Is it OK for people to call you cis or a cervix-haver? If not are you not dictating how others talk speak you?

I don’t think that’s comparable though. Using cis or cervix haver are part of the campaign to take away women’s language.

Can you not see that insisting on using sex based pronouns when the other person has indicated that they don't want you to makes it harder for you to ask them not call you something you don't like?

I can't see how any progress can be made towards a solution that is fair to everyone in society when both sides can't even agree to refer to each other in ways that don't make them feel uncomfortable. It just polarizes the issue further which I don't think helps anyone on either side of the debate.

In my case I physically can’t use preferred pronouns when the person is clearly the opposite sex to how they’d like to be seen. There’s a disconnect in my head that leaves me feeling very anxious and unable to speak.
I’ve been told before that I should educate myself (I did, that’s why I’m staunchly GC), but do not take into account my disability.

I see what you’re getting at, but to me the demands are all coming from one side - you must use preferred pronouns, you must accept cis and bonus hole (🤮 to both). All the compromises and “be kind” are expected from women and women only. TRAs want 100% validation, and when it comes to main UK organisations, they are getting it.

No other group of people does this. Or at least I can’t think of any. Why is this group of people so special that they can change language and use manipulative and gaslighting tactics to their hearts content?

No child should be taught that you can’t tell whether someone is a man or woman (as many are in schools), this is basic safeguarding.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2023 13:52

And if you think the DM is the source of unbiased information you have a big problem.

I didn't say it was. Name one source that is free of bias.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 10/07/2023 13:53

Nigel

I mean more generally why should women be held to a higher standard than men when discussing race . Feminism I get but why should women be better than men in terms of racism?

Agree entirely you should be included in feminism but feminism first centres sex based rights. Often it overlaps obviously

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2023 13:54

The bias I'm concerned about here is that the BBC saw fit to report on the Trans Pride parade blurring out some of the vile slogans about women and calling it a "day of love and rage" while conveniently ignoring the violent incitement to attack women.

YetAnotherBeckyMumsnet · 10/07/2023 13:55

Hello @DaisyUpsy thanks for posting. We kindly ask that you (and anyone else of course) report posts that you think we ought to see. Like many websites, we operate a notice and take-down policy, which means we may not see a post unless it's reported to us.

Our aim for the Talk boards is to host a civil and mutually respectful conversation and we'll remove posts not in keeping with that aim. We don't tolerate hate speech of any kind on Mumsnet and in fact, the outright, hateful homophobia, racism, misogyny, and transphobia that we see on some other platforms wouldn’t stand for more than a couple of minutes if it was posted here.

When it comes to discussions specifically about sex and gender, we've set out some principles about how we moderate, which you can read here.

We're also moving this over to Site stuff now so that any follow-up questions or comments for MNHQ don't get lost.

Mumsnet moderation principles for discussions around gender identity and sex | Mumsnet

Mumsnet moderation principles for discussions around gender identity and sex. Please familiarise yourself with this before posting on our forums.

https://www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

StefanosHill · 10/07/2023 13:55

NewNameNigel · 10/07/2023 13:37

Is it OK for people to call you cis or a cervix-haver? If not are you not dictating how others talk speak you?

I don’t think that’s comparable though. Using cis or cervix haver are part of the campaign to take away women’s language.

Can you not see that insisting on using sex based pronouns when the other person has indicated that they don't want you to makes it harder for you to ask them not call you something you don't like?

I can't see how any progress can be made towards a solution that is fair to everyone in society when both sides can't even agree to refer to each other in ways that don't make them feel uncomfortable. It just polarizes the issue further which I don't think helps anyone on either side of the debate.

Pronouns are a difficult area but no I do not think you should compel speech on this.

Particularly important for children who need clear statements on sex.

Sugaristheenemy · 10/07/2023 13:55

Perhaps the anger is because of the actions of I person and activists at the Pride rally in London, and those similar

Reading the article it seems the person who said that has form (and convictions) for violence. Just the sort of person you want representing you at your rally 🙄

Cornettoninja · 10/07/2023 13:57

Cucucucu · 10/07/2023 13:51

So basically you think if a woman uses nipple clamps or any sex toys related to nipples and breastfeeds she is also a sexual predator ? Because just like any woman who can still have pleasure with their nipples and breastfeed and completou separate both you think trans cannot ? Give your head a wobble . And remember induced lactation is also used on other occasions are people who need to use surrogates .

Exactly. This particular instance is just shaming women for having a libido and erogenous zones whilst breastfeeding.

It is not and never will be evidence of a link between breastfeeding and fetish. Fgs it’s as bad as the ‘she’s doing it for herself’ that gets trotted out over breastfeeding past a few months. Nothing more than shaming for daring to have sexual desires - and that’s straight out of the (primarily American) pro-life handbook.

JudgeAnderson · 10/07/2023 13:57

As much as the DM is not unbiased, which news outlet is? It's not like the Guardian is a bastion of impartiality on the matter either.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2023 13:58

So basically you think if a woman uses nipple clamps or any sex toys related to nipples and breastfeeds she is also a sexual predator ?

This isn't a woman. It's not the same. Male people can't produce breast milk, the cocktail of powerful drugs can induce milklike secretions but they aren't actually breast milk.

BBYBjorn · 10/07/2023 13:58

Seeitsayitsalted · 10/07/2023 09:55

YANBU, it’s why most under 30’s don’t touch this site with a barge pole. Needlessly hateful, but then again the general demographic on AIBU especially feeds into it

No, most under 30s don't touch this site because most under 30s aren't parents and have zero interest in MN. Got zilch to do with trans stuff.

Otherwise, I guess no under 30s are on twitter?

Sincerely, an under 30 who had no opinion of trans stuff before joining

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 10/07/2023 13:58

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2023 13:58

So basically you think if a woman uses nipple clamps or any sex toys related to nipples and breastfeeds she is also a sexual predator ?

This isn't a woman. It's not the same. Male people can't produce breast milk, the cocktail of powerful drugs can induce milklike secretions but they aren't actually breast milk.

I'm gobsmacked so many posters think it's the same

JudgeAnderson · 10/07/2023 13:58

It is not and never will be evidence of a link between breastfeeding and fetish.

There never was and should not be a link between breastfeeding and men though. Yet here we are.

NewNameNigel · 10/07/2023 13:58

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 10/07/2023 13:53

Nigel

I mean more generally why should women be held to a higher standard than men when discussing race . Feminism I get but why should women be better than men in terms of racism?

Agree entirely you should be included in feminism but feminism first centres sex based rights. Often it overlaps obviously

I never said they should be @tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

I am black and believe me, I know that women often aren't.
Unfortunately I can't switch between being black and women. I am always both so can't really separate the two when thinking about my rights.

I think perhaps you missed the post where I detailed the specific incident of racism I was referring to.

MrsColinRobinson · 10/07/2023 13:59

AnneLovesGilbert · 10/07/2023 09:59

Only one side is issuing rape and death threats. That’s the hate to be worrying about.

This.

YABU if you think that's the form of hate to worry about.

The first responder is currently, very badly, defending the right of a man's fetish to be satisfied by a non consenting baby. Where does the hate really come from? Think about it a little deeper

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/07/2023 13:59

The only people who need to give their heads a wobble are the people who can't see the nose in front of their face. It's extraordinarily naive to think "well this is just another woman". No.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 10/07/2023 14:00

Fair point Nigel, appreciate you expanding. And yes I may have missed some of the post you referred to this in.

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