Childfree Mumsnetters' Board?

[musixa]

There's been some discussion on this thread about the idea of a childfree/life without children board, so I thought I would raise the suggestion on Site Stuff

[[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4811166-to-ask-why-so-many-child-free-people-are-on-mumsnet?reply=126404125

My thinking is that the board would be a safe space for Mumsnetters who, for whether by choice or making the best of the hand they've been dealt, are embracing the childfree life, to discuss the issues that uniquely affect us - some examples I can think of are discrimination when it comes to workplace holidays; planning for old age and inheritance issues, how to cope when your friendship group only want to meet in child-friendly venues; family pressure to have children.

I would also hope it might stop so many threads like the linked one popping up, which often attract goady posters.

I hope you don't feel this is a step too far as a board suggestion and will give it serious consideration.

You can't move on The Litter Tray without tripping over incels. It is to weep.

This sounds like a really good idea

I think there is a good chance they would be attracted to chat such as "discrimination against child free people at work wanting to go on holidays" and a board dedicated to conversation around issues "only affecting childfree and childless people" yes.

I am not asking you to agree with me or presenting a case in court. I am giving my opinion and I freely admit that my knowledge of incel culture is thankfully on the basic side. But I do see it as one of the more insidious threats we have I'm society ATM. I am not in law enforcement or anything like that, but I did study politics and now have to undergo training on incels (there is a course we have to do) because it is a threat. It is very basic though and I would absolutely bow to your superior knowledge if you want to tell me exactly why I am wrong to be concerned?

But I have to work now, just in case you wonder where I have gone.

It may be worth reminding those that have concerns that the majority of childfree posters are very supportive of parents and parenthood.

We're your kids' teachers, your colleagues, aunties, child carers, friends, customers, managers, and wholly supportive and aware of the challenges parents face.

Just because I chose not to have my own, for my own reasons, doesn't mean I set any judgement on you.

It would be nice to have a place to post about an issue and not have the 'why are you even here' posts. It's invalidating and unkind.

Personally I'd welcome replies from those childfree and parents on such a board, definitely not making it 'only childfree can reply' but everyone can reply, just without the boring 'this is MUMSnet' replies when it's apparent in your post you don't have kids, or it's relevant that you don't in your thread.

This is a really good point

Sorry posted too soon

I came on to mumsnet as a student when I was doing a child related course.

I stuck around because of the tv threads, the baby name threads and you don't need to be a mum to put in your opinion about a parking dispute

I'm fed up of having to explain to myself why I'm on here. Yes there are other possibly more suitable sites but I like Mumsnet

I think the child free by choice and childfree not by choice are in such different situations that it would need carefully managing.

The latter are basically experiencing a bereavement. They joined MN expecting to become mums and then couldn't do so.

I think this idea that people can only be helped if they are in their own silo will oeople just like them is a problem too though. So not sure that having a Childfree by Choice and a separate Childfree not by Choice would necessary be the greatest help as people will be in an echo chamber.

To grow and develop to have to let in different experiences from outside of you.

I am not sure how helpful it necessarily is for someone who can't have a baby to spend most of their time on MN with other women who can't have babies and avoiding contact with women who do have babies.

Or for those who choose to be Childfree to spend all their time with similar others where they all reassure themselves that their decision was definitely for the best and nothing was lost or given up in making that choice.

If indeed that is how the boards turn out to be, which they might not.

@Jeezuswept I only feel hesitant about this kind of board because I don’t think it would end up free from those ‘why are you here?’ Type messages, I think it would end up attracting even more of them than the other boards. Though I hope I’m wrong.

I absolutely don’t think there’s anything wrong with having this board and I think it’s really shitty when parents make childless/childfree posters feel unwelcome on Mumsnet.

I’d honestly never realised how many parents are threatened by people they don’t know, making perfectly reasonable but different choices to them. Perhaps it explains the rising extremism and lack of tolerance in society if you’re all raising the next generation to hate and fear any person that makes a different choice to you!

Agreed. It’s utterly baffling. I can’t fathom the narrow-mindedness and how small a world view these people must have. It’s quite sad.

It may be worth reminding those that have concerns that the majority of childfree posters are very supportive of parents and parenthood

I'm child free and I'm in awe of parents. It's because I knew I couldn't do it that I am CF.

You may well be right! Hopefully they could just be reported though and hq would have a reason to delete them - as it stands, those comments don't get removed as technically they're not against guidelines as such but perhaps would be, if on a specific section.

It's a tricky one and I do understand the points raised.

I've got mixed feelings on this. I think there are very valid conversations to be had around the topic of choice. There is a lot of pressure, on women in particular, to have children. I'm experiencing it second hand right now as my DD is in her mid 20s and barely a week goes by without someone saying "Bet you can't wait for her to settle down and give you grandchildren" when actually I am perfectly happy for her to live her life exactly how she pleases and don't want her to have children if she doesn't wish to - certainly not so that I have grandchildren. (I don't particularly care if I never do to be honest.) So yes, I get it. There are prejudices against women who don't have children and lots of unpleasant stereotypes about women who choose not to do so and that's an important topic to discuss.
However, I was on a now defunct forum many years ago when I was a new Mum and they had a board of this type where unfortunately pretty much every unpleasant stereotype did come to the fore. There was a probably fairly small number of vehemently anti child/anti parent (specifically anti mother actually) posters who dominated conversations and it did get pretty nasty at times - from both "sides" really. I don't know how much it helped anyone. I didn't read it a huge amount but when I did it seemed to be the same people arguing the same things from increasingly entrenched positions most of the time.
So I'd say it's a good idea in theory but I'm not sure how it would go in practice.

I dont think people are fearful. I will say I always feel a bit baffled by the 'issues of not having a child'. Like what issues? I didn't have any issues not having child before I had children? I just lived my life. My kids are teens now, soon they will leave home, I don't forsee any issues arising from not having kids at home? What's the big difference between me having grown up children and someone that never had children? What's the big difference for instance booking holidays before you have children/when your children have left home and when someone who identifies as 'childfree' books a holiday? I just don't get it?

You've had children so it's understandable you won't have encountered the issues those without can face - discrimination in the workplace, pressure from friends and family, being ostracised by friends once they have children etc.

What's the big difference between me having grown up children and someone that never had children?. Enormous differences - you don't say you are estranged from your children, so presumably they will potentially be around to support you in the event of illness or in the natural frailty of age - to name just one difference.

What's the big difference for instance booking holidays before you have children/when your children have left home and when someone who identifies as 'childfree' books a holiday?

I don't think people mean booking holidays in the sense of booking flights/accommodation - it's booking annual leave in the workplace, where non-parents are sometimes expected by default to work Christmas/summer holidays so those with children can have those times off, year after year.

I think there is a good chance they would be attracted to chat such as "discrimination against child free people at work wanting to go on holidays" and a board dedicated to conversation around issues "only affecting childfree and childless people" yes

Why would they be attracted? any specific reason you have for thinking that?

I still don't get it? The booking holidays things were the same for me prior to having kids and are the same now that mine are teens, Im self employed but dh has worked the last 5 christmases(including Christmas day) to let those with young kids have it off prior to that his workplace closed over xmas.

As you aren't a parent you probably wouldn't understand that most parents don't expect their kids to care for them when they are older, both of mine say they are on the first plane out of Ireland when they finish uni as many, many young people choose to do here. I'm presuming as dh is older than me that I will care for him and muddle on/pay for care when I need help.

Of course I've had people say will you have children/are you going to have more children? What person hasnt? And I've had friendships where once I had a child they weren't interested in being my mate anymore(ostracised is a really strong word!) and friends prior to me having children who were busy with their kids so didn't prioritise me.

I don't really see anything unique in there to people that identify as 'childfree'.

Yes, because these sound like potential starter questions for some of the antinatalist rhetoric I have seen and heard of.

I don't think it is difficult to see how those questions and a dedicated board to those sorts of issues could attract a-holes. Have a look at some of the sub reddits on childfree and antinatalism if you feel like it.

I am honestly surprised you don't make the connection, but maybe I have it more on my radar as I've just had to do training on it.

I don't think this is the propose of the board or that every person or even that many of them would be posting in this way, but it could attract more of them. I do think that's a concern on a site which claims to be "for parents".

You can poo-poo me all you like. It doesn't make you right just because you say it and call me a scaremonger.

And if it turned out I was completely wrong then what harm is done in being more cautious to begin with? I am for a new board as long as it is well moderated. And I think that goes for parents bashing childless or childfree people on the new board. Is it not better for it to be well moderated? Didn't someone just say they hoped HW would delete any "what are you doing on here anyway?" posts? They wouldn't be deleted under normal talk guidelines AFAIK. So you would need tighter moderation on both sides. All just my opinion obviously. You don't have to agree.

As you aren't a parent you probably wouldn't understand that most parents don't expect their kids to care for them when they are older

My memory of threads on the topic here, and a quick advanced search of the words "childless old age" shows this is not the general view expressed on MN. But ten points for the patronising embedded in the phrase "as you aren't a parent you probably wouldn't understand"...

That was to @MrsDanversGlidesAgain

I noticed that patronising phrase, too. Perhaps we can be treated to "you don't know what love is until you have children", as well.

There is a fundamental difference between being a parent or non parent. Once you have children you frequently have to put them first. It doesn't matter how knackered you are if the baby doesn't sleep or your teen is having a crisis. Before I had children I didn't know what this was like really, to constantly have to put a more vulnerable person's needs first. I like to think many of the people on this site are mums and they know how that feels. Clearly the site is more inclusive than that and sometimes it doesn't matter. Anyone can discuss politics and parking. I think a separate non parent board could be helpful for some issues.

The booking holidays things were the same for me prior to having kids and are the same now that mine are teens, Im self employed but dh has worked the last 5 christmases(including Christmas day) to let those with young kids have it off prior to that his workplace closed over xmas.

So your DH has worked 5 Christmases to allow those with small kids to have them off, but you don’t understand how those who never have small kids would end up never getting Christmas off?

Really?

Before I had children I didn't know what this was like really, to constantly have to put a more vulnerable person's needs first

Children are not the only people who are vulnerable. Any carer could make your exact same post, and not all carers care for children or have children. Some children are carers, or grow up in families where a sibling is vulnerable and has to take priority. I appreciate that you only experienced this after becoming a parent but it’s not a universal distinction between parents and non-parents.

@fitzwilliamdarcy Yes, I did consider that full time carers may also have to constantly put a more vulnerable person's needs first. Are you suggesting all non parent users of Mumsnet are full time carers?