Childfree Mumsnetters' Board?

[musixa]

There's been some discussion on this thread about the idea of a childfree/life without children board, so I thought I would raise the suggestion on Site Stuff

[[https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4811166-to-ask-why-so-many-child-free-people-are-on-mumsnet?reply=126404125

My thinking is that the board would be a safe space for Mumsnetters who, for whether by choice or making the best of the hand they've been dealt, are embracing the childfree life, to discuss the issues that uniquely affect us - some examples I can think of are discrimination when it comes to workplace holidays; planning for old age and inheritance issues, how to cope when your friendship group only want to meet in child-friendly venues; family pressure to have children.

I would also hope it might stop so many threads like the linked one popping up, which often attract goady posters.

I hope you don't feel this is a step too far as a board suggestion and will give it serious consideration.

Sometimes I think that childfree women are the new witches. Going by a post upthread they seem to have a lot of issues and discontents projected onto and attributed to them.

Do CF men get this to the same extent? I've never seen it.

That really illustrates why we need a childless or childfree board

@MrsDanversGlidesAgain George Clooney is the example who always springs to mind. I don’t think he was ever childfree (he has kids now) but he was single and childless for such a long time and generally seen as some kind of masculine ideal for it.

CF men do get flack, I think, because men’s social status is enhanced by having offspring. But being single as a man is very different from being single as a woman.

Tbf childless women were often the old witches too. There were quite a few childless women killed as witches because it would be assumed that if a child nearby died it was because the childless woman was so jealous she cursed them. I genuinely feel that we havent moved on very far from that perception.

In terms of childless men I think there can be some sterotyping around the Boo Radley type of man. So men who are loners, perhaps socially awkward, who live by themselves being seen as predators or pedophiles.

But attractive, "normal" single men are just playing the field, not being tied down, not under a woman's thumb being bullied into having kids

And childless men who are in a relationship, like my husband, are vaguely heroic for staying with their barren wives (because the assumption is always that its the womens fault or the woman's decision not the get married)

My colleague who had a vasectomy in his 20s was congratulated on him common sense. My colleague who wanted a hysterectomy in her 20s was told she just didn't know if she wanted children yet.

So generally men have it easier but only if they conform to societies expectations of looks and actions.

Isn't it a shame that in 2023 we are still judging women by their reproductive choices (where it has been a choice).

The language towards childless and childfree people on here sometimes can be disgusting. Far more disgusting than anything I've seen posted by childfree people towards parents.

Reddit is a chess pit, but on here, the emphasis is on female dominated conversation. Or at least it should be.

I don't understand why there is such vociferous opposition from mothers (and the very odd father) on here towards one little section of this vast site being for a specific group of people without children. In what way would a childfree board really affect your lives? And if it does, then, my friends, you have bigger problems than who is allowed where on an internet forum.

My children are very likely to not have children themselves. My daughter because years of eating disorders have made her infertile and my son because he just doesn't want children. As my life has been dominated by parenting, I quite like hearing from people who have made the same decision as my son...and who are in a similar position to my daughter. I want to understand what their lives are likely to be like, what challenges will they have that I didn't. I want to knkw that they will have lovely, happy lives.

Also, as a person with a childfree sister, but one who works in child protection (oh yes she has had some insults about that) I have seen for myself that sometimes the childfree person actually gives better advice than a parent. We know our children, we then extrapolate our experiences on to others...but my sister has just worked with a lot of children and their parents and has so many more experiences that I would never understand.

I don't mind whether you get a separate board or not, I will visit you on there to read about your lives if that's ok? I just wish that we lived in a different society where women were not judged for not having children.

I would also point out that this is the Internet. I say I have two grown up children, but how do you really know that I am who I say I am?

You don't know me. You don't knkw my name, where I live, that im really female.

MNHQ - I am everything I say I am btw.

But same can be said about anyone. We don't know that Dave the antinatalist is on here masquerading as mummyoffive86 (nn made up of course to illustrate a point).

and funnily enough when Owen (who shouts at her for aborting her pregnancy) dates a lady who wants the family dream, he dumps her because she doesnt have ambition (as far as I remember)

And childless men who are in a relationship, like my husband, are vaguely heroic for staying with their barren wives

At least we're not called barren any more.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1388477/Barren-Britain-19-women-childless-menopause.html

The best rated comment on the article is a corker.

The fact that there’s this much discussion and consternation over it about it shows it’s very needed imo. I made a flippant comment earlier on the thread about corralling the childfree into one place, but personally I’d like that space of likeminded people. I’m one of those for whom it has never been a question of choice - I’ve never had the urge/desire/even faint twinge that I might want children, the idea horrifies me and I love my life as it is, it’s not like I had to sit down and think about it and decide between having or not having children.

But as a woman in my 30s I still feel the whole idea and social narrative of motherhood is relevant to me, because it’s absolutely everywhere! My social media algorithms show me fertility tests. I have childfree friends whose social life suddenly drops off a cliff as their mates all have babies.

Personally I don’t feel I’ve ever faced any challenges, stigma or judgement for being childfree, my parents DGAF and most of my friends don’t have kids, but as a non parent I find it so depressing to see in society and read on here and in the media how much women are still penalised for motherhood, how deep inequality runs. It’s easier for me to live my life eschewing societal expectations and living my principles when it comes to feminism and equality, because I don’t have kids and I haven’t fallen foul of things like workplace discrimination for being pregnant or having a baby, or a male partner who suddenly became an idle sexist when a baby arrived. But motherhood is a feminist issue and all women should be behind that. The expectation that all women want kids or have certain innate nurturing traits is a sexist idea that does us all a disservice whether we’re parents or not. That’s why I feel it belongs on MN.

DH has actually had worse comments than me strangely.

I haven’t fallen foul of things like workplace discrimination for being pregnant or having a baby

Although people often just assume if you are a woman you have children. I remember a training session I was on - the trainer was obviously trying to be 'relatable' and I must have looked 'mumsy' that day because he kept looking over at me and saying stuff like 'If you were making a decision like this as a mum ...' I mean, even if I had been a mum I'd have found him extremely patronising, but not being one made it even worse. Naturally, he wasn't smiling at the men and talking about what they might do 'as a dad' 🙄

Who knows how many roles women are passed over for when they are of childbearing age on the mere possibility they might be about to take maternity leave?

Although people often just assume if you are a woman you have children

I don't say anything at work about not having children unless asked, and then I keep it brief, but at exjob I had one colleague who was convinced I had a daughter. I have no idea where she got that from. Presumably she saw 'middle aged woman' and filled in the rest herself.

"How many do you have?"

I have been asked this several times. As though it's completely expected there will be a number. I agree, it's just expected that as a woman of a certain age (oh I hate that term) that you have kids.

"None." in answer usually results in "ooooh there's loads of time for you!!" with tinkly laughs, before they tell me about their child/children.

I agree with this. I got pregnant a couple of months before my 40th, before that I had been trying for over 4 years and quite honestly didn't think it would happen for me. I feel I have some understanding as I know what it's like and how people treat you. Not even necessarily negative in my case, but there's a whole awkwardness about it. Like there's a childless elephant in the room. It's worse if you don't even want children and people pity you for it.

"How many do you have?"

"None."

And then there's that awkward silence hanging as you can see they were all poised to ask 'boys or girls?' but they have no response prepared for yours and they're doing their damndest not to ask 'oh, why's that?'

I had a colleague like this too who thought I had a daughter. Mind you she also once asked me how my mum was - mum had passed away 18 months previously.

Something to look forward to: "Do you have grandchildren??"

Yes - it’s even more of a default assumption that you have grandchildren if you are a certain age.

I’ve had more “oh no, well there’s still time!” than I can count.

One guy went “what a shame… actually maybe it’s not a shame?” So there is hope… maybe!

Or 'shame, you'd make a lovely mum!' how the hell they work that out I have no idea. Rather like the way people on here say 'you deserve better, OP,' when for all they know OP is getting her just comeuppance in the situation she's in.

No, I wouldn't be a lovely mum. That's why I decided not to be one.

Excellent post. We should all care about how other women are treated, whether they- or we - have children or not. Expectations of what women are "supposed" to be like do impact on us all.
My niece is a senior midwife on the labour ward in large hospital, and by all accounts a very good one. She is also child free by choice. It completely blows people's minds that a woman could care passionately about other women's experiences of pregnancy and childbirth but not want children herself. Often she is treated with a degree of suspicion both by patients and other staff when they discover that she doesn't have, or want, children. Yet she says she has never heard anyone make similar comments to male staff, in fact they rarely even get asked if they have children
Basically, we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.

She is also child free by choice. It completely blows people's minds that a woman could care passionately about other women's experiences of pregnancy and childbirth but not want children herself

A childfree cousin of DM was a child psychologist. When DM heard that she snorted 'What does she know, she doesn't even have children!' this from someone who didn't question my decision to remain childfree.

Years later as an adult I did Pychology GCSE for fun. It only took a few weeks to recognise that DM had no idea (i.e talking her usual uninformed cobblers) that just because you don't have children, you can still help and understand them. After all, no one questions why a lot of gynae specialists are male, do they?

A childfree cousin of DM was a child psychologist. When DM heard that she snorted 'What does she know, she doesn't even have children!' this from someone who didn't question my decision to remain childfree.

So does she think people without kids shouldn’t be teachers or paediatricians either?

I have no idea. DM had form for having an opinion and being right on absolutely everything, even things she had no clue about (like what child psychologists actually do and how having children isn't necessary to be one). Ironically, despite being a mother of three, in a lot of ways she had no idea about children either. Certainly not her own.

I don’t know, I’ve seen some nutty posts on here suggesting that any man who wants to be an obstetrician or midwife must be a pervert.