How do we discuss the reality of parts of the UK absorbing large numbers of men from other cultures

[BernardBlacksMolluscs]

three threads deleted in FWR

come on now. People obviously want to talk about this

I thought the threads were largely honest and respectful

what are the rules of engagement MNHQ? This is real life for many women. How can they talk about it? please advise

I don't think anyone has suggested that white men don't commit horrendous crimes again women, have they?

There were lots of young middle eastern male immigrants in Paris in the 90s when I was living there. I can 100% tell you that their behaviour towards me, as a young woman, was different from the behaviour from males from other cultures.

It is not racist to point this out. It is what I experienced.

Why can't we encourage young people to have more Dc, they'd probably like to but the housing is so expensive etc and no social housing

and I think this is my problem

women are being open and honest about what they experience, but are being told to pipe down because it doesn't fit other people's preferred narrative.

Is that because there are few immigrant men in your area compared to say Greater Manchester?

It’s not a race to the bottom.

Ultimately it’s men that are the problem.

To be honest it's not something I think about very much but if we recognise that the human rights of women are lesser than those of men in the Middle East, even just focusing on the Quatar and the World Cup , and the fact that so many people on these boards have expressed that it shouldn't shown in schools because of those violations, it is some extreme cognitive dissonance to say that women who have experienced the same misogyny from immigrants from the same region are racists and should not even be allowed to discuss it.

Woman in hospital: “that man raped me”.

Other women : “there are no men on this ward”.

Woman sexually assaulted by group of culturally-different men: “those men sexually assaulted me”.

Other women: “that’s racist. Anyway, British firemen rape women”.

I live in a north London borough with very high immigration levels. Yes, some immigrant can be harassing but not large numbers like OP makes out. And white British men can be just as bad.

So your experience invalidates someone else’s?

Of course not. It's called offering a counterpoint.

Whatever happened to the “we believe you” movement?

I don't think it ever really existed. It was just 'be kind' with all of the anti women connotations attached to that.

Yes I do accept that. I'm not arguing against what you're trying to discuss, I think it's a valid concern. But that's not what your OP was about. You wanted to know how the topic could be discussed without being shut down – and then posted an inflammatory worded question to kick things off. Had you posted something like 'Should the Govt being doing more to protect women from predatory male behaviour in growing communities' followed by what you posted here, you'd have sparked a reasonable debate because yes, you are right, it does affect the behaviour of those raised in that culture.

I think the tone of the opening post and some of the first responses was in response to the fact that several threads trying to discuss just that had been removed for 'not being in the spirit'.

Context is key here.

so it's OK to say 'growing communities', but not Ok to say 'other cultures'?

is it the word 'other' or the word 'culture' that is racist? just for my future reference

I'm getting that the question is OK, but only if I word it precisely correctly, yes?

The thread topic has nothing to do with women's sex-based and transgender rights but has been posted in Sex and Gender.

I agree it is a worthy subject of discussion and would contribute if it were posted in say, Politics or Feminism Chat or if there is a

news or current affairs section or perhaps AIBU but will not do so where it is pushing on-topic threads down the list, along with some other off-topic threads doing the same thing.

you think men harassing women has nothing to do with sex and gender?

right you are

i live in London. Honestly, my worst experiences have involved white men.

It’s not foreign men that are the problem. It’s the entitlement that men in general have.

There were lots of young middle eastern male immigrants in Paris in the 90s when I was living there. I can 100% tell you that their behaviour towards me, as a young woman, was different from the behaviour from males from other cultures.

It is not racist to point this out. It is what I experienced.

I believe you 100% and I don’t think you’re racist at all.

However, on the other thread there was a poster who also lived in France and she said the French men’s behaviour was the worst she’d ever encountered.

I said that I’ve never encountered one French man that had inappropriate behaviour but the Italian men in Italy were the worst I’ve ever come across.

Neither of us were being racist, just like you aren’t.

But what it shows is that men are men and many of them have misogynistic views, whether they’re open about them or not.

Sex is a protected characteristic as is race and religion. Is anyone noting how men can be attacked on here but dare you mention a religion beginning with m (not Mumsnet) or ethnicity only one of those 3 will miraculously be within the talk guidelines.

@woodhill That is an option, but it can't be done at the same time as discouraging people to have children which is the way the government has decided to go. To reverse it they'd need to build more genuinely affordable housing, lower or remove higher education fees, increase child benefit and possibly make it universal again, pay benefits for ALL children not just the first two, subsidise childcare or women staying at home to look after their own children, etc.

I think what we need most is politicians who will be honest about things rather than blaming everything on a scapegoat.

Netherlands did. They were coalition members in the Iraq wars (which Iraq started).

And besides you are mixing up refugee crises. The million Germany took in during 2015/16 were mostly fleeing the war in Syria. Which Germany did have a hand in creating as they sent their military there to fight ISIS in 2015.

So you don't think men from middle eastern countries who have been raised to believe than women are the property of men might view women differently (and treat them differently) from other men?

Men are men, but men who are born into misogynistic cultures where women are seen as lesser humans are more likely to treat women as lesser humans wherever they migrate to . The nature of the treatment towards me from the middle eastern men in France was not the same as from the native French men because of the differences in the way the men have been raised.

I'm not as familiar with Italian men as I am with French men but I doubt that they have been raised to see women as lesser than men in the way that immigrant men from the middle east have been.

is it the word 'other' or the word 'culture' that is racist? just for my future reference

It’s the classing an entire group of people as something, that is offensive.

If I said all black men like basketball, that is offensive.

If I said all women over 40 are rubbish in bed, that’s offensive.

If I said all adults with autism are underlying sex offenders, that would be offensive.

It doesn’t matter what the subject is, if you base a judgement on an entire population of people based on race, culture, sex, age etc then that is prejudice.

If you replace your (or anyones) wording of ‘culture’ or ‘foreign’ with the word ‘autism’, then you’ll be able to see if it’s offensive or not.

The same way many women will have been raped with men with autism, it doesn’t mean that all autistic people are rapists and it’s not invalidating the victims to say so.