Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

[ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn]

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

I would be very interested to hear a definition of feminism that does not have sex and gender at its core.

@SunnyintheSun

Eh? As a feminist I’m interested in ALL feminist issues, not just the sex/gender debate. Why would you separate them out? And how would that work for what is such a central issue to many other topics?

To be clear (sorry I probably wasn't very) we're not proposing hiving anyone off according to their beliefs - anyone can post anywhere - what we're suggesting is having 2 topics within FWR:

Sex and gender discussion
Feminism chat

This is so that people who don't want to see/engage with the debate about women's/ trans rights can avoid it but still discuss feminist issues of which there are many. Anyone is free to post in either topic.

We could just call the topic women's/trans rights I suppose...

Anyone is free to post in either topic.

But if we start threads in the wrong one they will be moved, presumably?

There's no feminist who isn't critical of gender stereotypes and gender roles, and experiences difficulties in life as a direct result of her sex.

I've said a few times I don't subscribe to gender critical feminism as a new breed of feminism, as feminism is critical of gender and the impact of the male sex on the female sex in society by default.

Will threads get banned or moved if the conversation moves over to sex and gender in feminism chat?

Ok that sounds better if all in FWR

I’d keep the sex and gender topic one over the other you just suggested

Also as long as people can post in either as they wish

So you'd want:

Feminism chat

Feminism chat (no discussion of sex or gender)

... I don't think this avoids the problems you might think it would.

@JustineMumsnet

We could just call the topic women's/trans rights I suppose...

Well, Trans Widows threads aren't about trans rights. We get enough of that elsewhere.

@JustineMumsnet

We could just call the topic women's/trans rights I suppose...

Is that a joke?

I’m pretty sure many would just post in feminism chat btw

As feminism is central to the issue

Hmmm. I’m trying to figure out how that would work in practice.

Given that even FGM can’t be discussed without someone flat footing in and calling Hibo Wadere transphobic, what are the feminist topics that can be guaranteed never to touch on the gender vs sex debate?

I think it’s intrinsic. And I have to say, that the voices calling for feminism chat to be different have always had the option to be the change they want to see in the world, and make the threads that they want. If that hasn’t happened, it’s on them, isn’t it?

I think the topic of sex based rights will always float to the surface, no matter what you call the board, because the users here are worried about their sex based rights. It’s never been about trans. It’s about women.

@CardinalLolzy

I also think separating sex and gender debate from general feminism is good

I just can't see how it's workable. When we're talking about feminism, by definition we are talking about sex and/or gender.

I also think separating sex and gender debate from general feminism is good but should still be under the Feminism board because it's part of feminism issues, just not the whole of it.

This is the whole paragraph. You'll see we agree sort of. It is part of feminism, just isn't all of it. If it's still under the feminism board, I don't see the issue with it being a sub topic so it doesn't overshadow everything else about feminism.

@JustineMumsnet

We could just call the topic women's/trans rights I suppose...

How about two boards, GC feminism and lib fems?

I think that would give everyone somewhere to post?

@JustineMumsnet

As others have stated, this is indeed separating feminism from the biggest fight for women's rights so far this century.

Does this mean that any thread started in the general feminism chat that your team feel should not be there will be booted into the new section? As has recently happened with one of the AIBU topics?

Feminism is about the female sex and the sex / gender roles we have as a result.

It makes no sense to separate them.

I'm sorry, but this response makes no sense.

Maybe you need a Feminism for Women's Rights board, and a board called

"Women Look After Everyone Else's Rights Before Their Own #bekind."

[quote Helleofabore]@JustineMumsnet

As others have stated, this is indeed separating feminism from the biggest fight for women's rights so far this century.

Does this mean that any thread started in the general feminism chat that your team feel should not be there will be booted into the new section? As has recently happened with one of the AIBU topics?[/quote]
I agree

Well I agree with all of you, this is not a good way to go

@TinselAngel

Anyone is free to post in either topic.

But if we start threads in the wrong one they will be moved, presumably?

Well the aim here is to facilitate the many requests we've had for a reorganisation from those who are keen to discuss, for example, inequality and stereotyping but want to avoid discussions around the trans vs women's rights debate. So yes we'd ask you to post accordingly.

I feel like the saying 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' applies here. Remember several years back when it was discovered that FWR traffic had gone through the roof? There's a reason for that and it's because women wanted a space to discuss the assault on women's rights.

That hasn't changed. I don't want to be put in a debate topic separate from feminism chat where we have to endlessly go around in circles about clownfish and suchlike.

I realise some posters complain occasionally about the lack of topics they want to talk about but they are free to make them yet rarely do.

You are never going to win over and appease the people who have already decided they hate Mumsnet.

@JustineMumsnet

We could just call the topic women's/trans rights I suppose...

That sounds rather adversarial which I'm sure is unintentional. Human rights exist independently without removing the rights of others.

FWR sounds like a decent title that should be retained - and I agree with removing the unused other sections (like books/organisation).

I'm unclear if you're proposing a separate: Gender Rights forum? Would this incorporate an area for parents to discuss their experience of such issues?

Notionally, where would the transwidows threads belong?

You are never going to win over and appease the people who have already decided they hate Mumsnet.

I agree. And the section will be a magnet for the usual idiots who come to cause trouble. This is a terrible idea.

Well the aim here is to facilitate the many requests we've had for a reorganisation from those who are keen to discuss, for example, inequality and stereotyping but want to avoid discussions around the trans vs women's rights debate. So yes we'd ask you to post accordingly.

I can't stand the parking threads in AIBU.

I just scroll past.

In particular, the trans widows threads deserve to remain where they are as it's not philosophical discussion. It's real lives and real women being abused.

Well the aim here is to facilitate the many requests we've had for a reorganisation from those who are keen to discuss, for example, inequality and stereotyping but want to avoid discussions around the trans vs women's rights debate.

Inequality based on sex and stereotyping based on gender?

I also don't see how it's going to work, other than the way it's happened naturally, now.

Everyone will still post in sex and gender, about everything, because that's what feminism is about.

There are already three or four other feminist sections that never get used.

It seems odd to be creating a further one, and appears driven by what people don't want to hear, rather than what they do.

If there are a whole load of topics that people want to talk about, but can't get a word in edgeways, there are four other boards on which to do it! But they don't.

Isn't this the second iteration of people not wanting to hear women talk about this? Isn't that what feminism chat is, anyway?

@Wrongsideofhistorymyarse

You are never going to win over and appease the people who have already decided they hate Mumsnet.

I agree. And the section will be a magnet for the usual idiots who come to cause trouble. This is a terrible idea.

It's really not about the haters - it's about the regular users who have a different take to GC feminists but still consider themselves feminists.