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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

915 replies

ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 10/06/2021 13:02

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

OP posts:
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jellybeansforbreakfast · 11/06/2021 09:13

The guidelines are such that there's ways of skirting round getting deleted, but I have absolutely seen this for myself. You mean that the ways we phrase the truth of biological sex is so stilted and unatural that you could spot it from space?

Yes, we know. That's what we are asking MNHQ to reconsider!

JustineMumsnet · 11/06/2021 11:55

Hey,

Thanks for all your thoughts on this. We’re delighted with yesterday’s judgement because it vindicates the position we’ve held at Mumsnet for some time. Namely that people should be able to discuss sex-based rights and the implications of gender self-id freely, without harassment and that it’s not transphobic to do so.

This has not been an easy position for us to hold - we’ve been frequently labelled as a hate site by a few vocal activists on social media and in outlets such as Pink News and many of our advertisers have been targeted with such accusations, and subsequently withdrawn activity. So it’s a relief that, as of yesterday, our position is very clearly on the right side of the law.

That said, we believe it’s important, and in fact the only way forward where competing views and rights are directly in conflict, to be respectful of other opinions and beliefs - hence our insistence on civil debate and our keenness to be inclusive of diverse voices. There’s an important difference - hinted at in yesterday’s judgement - between stating a view in principle and stating it in an aggressive and offensive way - such as deliberately misgendering individuals or repeatedly trotting out ‘transwomen are men’. Threads devoted to named individuals to unpick their gender presentation, appearance, lifestyle or personal choices constitute a personal attack, so we will continue to delete them along with unfair generalisations. It’s this type of behaviour (as opposed to the view that sex is immutable) that we consider to be transphobic, and hence it is against our Talk guidelines.

Posting guidelines on Mumsnet have never simply been about a set of defined rules of what can and can’t be said: we always want to take context into account because this is as much about the kind of community we want, collectively, to create (one that is inclusive, supportive and thoughtful as well as incisive and bold) as about the semantics of what’s written.

We also think now might be the time to consider a reshuffle of the topics in the Feminism board. Feminism and feminist organising has always been a crucial part of Mumsnet and we want all Mumsnet users to feel they can use these boards to discuss the hundreds of ways in which sex - and gender roles - impact on women’s lives, irrespective of their views on sex and gender. So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues and at the same time streamline some of the other topics under the FWR umbrella (some of which are rarely used).

I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity here when elsewhere many gender critical feminists have had to put up with extraordinary amounts of incivility and indeed downright harassment. Please be assured that we will continue to insistently make the case for women’s right to be heard on this topic both on Mumsnet and off. But we do believe it’s far more effective to do that from a position of the moral high ground.

TinselAngel · 11/06/2021 12:02

So we're being put in a special section away from Feminism?

MarshaBradyo · 11/06/2021 12:06

The things you list are not what we want to be able to say anyway. We don’t want to spend time deliberately misgendering people. We merely want to state biological reality in general, not make it personal.
(I say we, others may differ)

I do want to stay in FWR though as this is crucial part of feminism to me.

SunnyintheSun · 11/06/2021 12:07

Eh? As a feminist I’m interested in ALL feminist issues, not just the sex/gender debate. Why would you separate them out? And how would that work for what is such a central issue to many other topics?

Thelnebriati · 11/06/2021 12:10

I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity Shock

Thats another slap in the face.

OvaHere · 11/06/2021 12:12

Sex and Gender is a Feminist issue. We should be able to discuss it under the heading Feminism, it doesn't require a different section.

What you seem to be saying here is that we are the wrong kind of feminists and need to be shunted to a different section.

TinselAngel · 11/06/2021 12:14

This feels like we're being punished for Maya's judgement rather than it giving us any benefit here.

Thelnebriati · 11/06/2021 12:14

You only look at posts if they've been reported (and by people who don't even use Mumsnet), and yet you still say specific posters aren't being targeted for deletion.
Those two statements contradict each other.

Poster A) posts without sanction and poster B) writes the same type of post and gets their account suspended.

There are antagonistic anti feminist posters who have more than 4 deletions in a 4 week period, and who are allowed to keep their accounts.

MarshaBradyo · 11/06/2021 12:16

Feels a bizarre decision

Could you rethink the moving into new topic?

Vanishun · 11/06/2021 12:17

@TinselAngel

This feels like we're being punished for Maya's judgement rather than it giving us any benefit here.
This. What an odd move to say "we think you lot are transphobic and we're putting you in a new section".

Probably not the best timing.

CardinalLolzy · 11/06/2021 12:18

So MN, how would you ensure threads that aren't ostensibly about gender don't have any posts questioning how feminine/ masculine the people under discussion have (eg when referring to "women in refuges ") or whether they are biologically male or female?
Would this not be a way for trouble-makers to ensure that any thread about women or feminism is shunted off to the sub-board - by asking derailing questions about "what do you mean by "women"?" or similar?

OvaHere · 11/06/2021 12:18

So we asked for the moderation rules to be reviewed in light of Maya's win and what you've come back with is further punishment for women in the form of eviction.

CardinalLolzy · 11/06/2021 12:20

And conversely, if threads about sex and gender have implications for feminist issues such as maternity wards, refuges etc - can they remain in the main FWR board?
It seems you're trying to separate things that are intrinsically linked.

PronounssheRa · 11/06/2021 12:20

So we’d like to introduce a separate topic for Sex and Gender issues

This is odd, where should we post threads when there is a feminist issue around sex and gender?

CardinalLolzy · 11/06/2021 12:20

Didn't tag @JustineMumsnet in my two posts but I meant to!

dragoncheeselady · 11/06/2021 12:21

@TinselAngel

This feels like we're being punished for Maya's judgement rather than it giving us any benefit here.
I entirely agree with Tinsel. This seems to be a punishment and a way of ignoring the judgement. Sex and Gender are key topics of feminism and moving them to another section is wrong
TinselAngel · 11/06/2021 12:22

It's difficult enough to get the voices of trans widows heard in Feminism currently without us being put into a new "Sex and Gender" silo.

SirSamuelVimes · 11/06/2021 12:23

No no no to a separate sex and gender topic. That's like saying "this isn't really feminism".

OvaHere · 11/06/2021 12:24

@SirSamuelVimes

No no no to a separate sex and gender topic. That's like saying "this isn't really feminism".
I think that's the point.
Thelnebriati · 11/06/2021 12:24

What aspects of feminism dont relate to 'sex and gender'?

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 11/06/2021 12:24

I don't understand this decision either. Surely if you want to tidy, better to lump all the current topics into one topic. Splitting off sex/gender which is the whole basis for feminism seems like a very odd thing to do.

inever · 11/06/2021 12:26

I think this is a well-balanced view and I agree @JustineMumsnet. I also think separating sex and gender debate from general feminism is good but should still be under the Feminism board because it's part of feminism issues, just not the whole of it.

I don't think MNHQ can please everyone as on one side they're called Woke and on the other side, they're called Right-wing bigots and a hate site.

Personally, I'm happy with the court ruling because biological facts really should be upheld. Everyone deserves their views respected including GC feminists. It's been mind boggling how it's taken a court case to accept this.

ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn · 11/06/2021 12:27

I am struggling to understand some of your logic here, Justine.

Sex and gender are fundamental to feminism. They can't be separated, either theoretically or pragmatically, so I can't see how dividing the boards in such a way would work in any practical way.

As I said upthread:

It is fundamentally unfair that posters who believe in gender as identity are able to assert that men can become women, whilst posters who believe in gender as an oppressive hierarchy are unable to assert that men cannot become women.

OP posts:
CardinalLolzy · 11/06/2021 12:28

I also think separating sex and gender debate from general feminism is good

I just can't see how it's workable. When we're talking about feminism, by definition we are talking about sex and/or gender.