Any chance of a review of the FWR moderation rules in light of Maya Forstater's success in court please?

[ViperAtTheGatesOfDawn]

The belief that transwomen are men and that transmen are women has been accepted as a legitimate and protected belief, yet we are not able to state this on Mumsnet under the current rules.

It has become increasingly difficult to discuss feminist issues on the dedicated feminism boards as a result of the moderation rules.

In light of Maya's success in court, and that 'gender critical' beliefs are considered protected under the Equality Act, would it be possible for the FWR sex/gender mod rules to be re-visited please?

This didn't start because women here are inherently transphobic, it started because anything and everything women said about biology, biological sex and the way women's lives are uniquely affected by these things and their lived experiences in a patriarchy, was labelled transphobic. This is happening both on MN and in wider society. Give this a go and see what happens, I can absolutely guarantee you that the policing of women's speech by the monitors will continue, because they find so many women's issues exclusionary (because they affect biological women). It. Will. Never. Be. Enough.

@SirSamuelVimes

No no no to a separate sex and gender topic. That's like saying "this isn't really feminism".

this

I know some of you will be disappointed that we insist on respectful language and inclusivity

blimey Justine. Thanks ever so

inever i do sort of agree in theory but can't see how it'd work without ppl having fun and games getting threads moved.

Eg in Feminism: "these mothers were all victims of stalking, what can we do about it? "
Goader: mothers? You're grouping them according to their sex? Can this be moved to the Sex and Gender forum please mods?

TBH I'd really hoped that MNHQ would spend a bit more time thinking about this and not make a rushed decision. At the moment this feels hurried and poorly thought out.

Can you take some more time please Justine, this is important.

Well the aim here is to facilitate the many requests we've had for a reorganisation from those who are keen to discuss, for example, inequality and stereotyping but want to avoid discussions around the trans vs women's rights debate. So yes we'd ask you to post accordingly.

Are these regular FWR posters? Or is Feminism Chat being handed over to people who currently don't/rarely post there?

This feels like a coup de tat.

Could you do a user survey where people have to be logged in to do it, and then poll user feelings about the topics? Possibly dividing into new vs older members too?

I just wonder if the "many requests" aren't actually that many compared to people who haven't requested it ... if you see what I mean.

If actually 80% of regular mumsnetters would prefer a new division, you can see that it would be popular.

Justine, you haven't responded to the actual issue.

It doesn't matter where these discussions take place.

The point is that you have special rules for moderating pro- and anti-gender theory discussions, and that those rules privilege the pro- posters and inhibit the anti- posters.

In the light of the Forstater judgement, you may well be illegally discriminating against a protected belief - one side is allowed to fully express their protected belief; the other side is not.

This can constitute a hostile and degrading environment, regardless of board organisation.

We are asking you to reconsider these asymmetric moderating rules and the often inconsistent application of them in the light of an important court judgement.

Will you?

The monitors like Shitz have been pushing for this for sometime. But these are users here to deliberately disrupt women's opportunity to discuss the truth. Why are their views the most important? Why not canvass the opinion of women first?

Poll, not survey.

It's really not about the haters - it's about the regular users who have a different take to GC feminists but still consider themselves feminists

So GC feminist and libfems then...

Sounds like a reframe of the don't debate this. Don't debate this here.

You well know how many women have learnt about these issues as a direct result of reading threads in FWR. There's been a whole book written on it.

Would this new proposed topic be included in active threads?

@CardinalLolzy

inever i do sort of agree in theory but can't see how it'd work without ppl having fun and games getting threads moved.

Eg in Feminism: "these mothers were all victims of stalking, what can we do about it? "
Goader: mothers? You're grouping them according to their sex? Can this be moved to the Sex and Gender forum please mods?

Precisely. This is a game and MN just lost a round for their genuine users.

And yes, of course it's going to be a magnet for trolls.

Yes

It's really not about the haters - it's about the regular users who have a different take to GC feminists but still consider themselves feminists.

So?

Why do they get feminism chat and not us?

This is crazy.

We can start separate threads in a topic. They’ll just have to deal with that.

It's really not about the haters - it's about the regular users who have a different take to GC feminists but still consider themselves feminists.

but why can't they just ignore the threads they don't like and start ones they do? why must they be shielded from seeing people with different opinions to them?

seems fragile, no?

Here’s an idea. What if you flipped it, and had a section for trans issues, including “intersectional feminism”? In addition to the LGBT parenting board.

People there can discuss those topics relating to trans that don’t take a gender critical feminist perspective.

I for one, as a confirmed gender atheist, would be happy to promise not to post anything about my version of feminism there. My concern genuinely is women’s rights, and if people did want to have a section where they discussed trans and feminist issues where opinions like mine wouldn’t be encouraged, I wouldn’t oppose that.

I think that could equally serve the needs of people who find feminist chat overwhelming.

Worth considering?

Hear bloody hear!

Exactly what I was about to post.

You start the threads you want to read. Scroll past the others.

Half of CV is useless and uninteresting to me now, bar the odd data thread.

Here’s an idea. What if you flipped it, and had a section for trans issues, including “intersectional feminism”?

Great idea. Why not?

(Was posting after Marsha!)

Threads devoted to named individuals to unpick their gender presentation, appearance, lifestyle or personal choices constitute a personal attack, so we will continue to delete them along with unfair generalisations

I agree with this but such threads happen incredibly rarely (less than one a month i reckon?) and I don't think anyone was really talking about this in particular?

@BernardBlackMissesLangCleg

It's really not about the haters - it's about the regular users who have a different take to GC feminists but still consider themselves feminists.

but why can't they just ignore the threads they don't like and start ones they do? why must they be shielded from seeing people with different opinions to them?

seems fragile, no?

Yeah, have to say I really don't understand why this doesn't just happen.

Also, thinking about the coronavirus board, I've disagreed with people there.

The point of mumsnet's FWR and why its been respected by feminists, was being host to debate and people disagreeing, more debating and agree to disagree. Respectfully.

This thread is just querying the mod decisions.