The deletion of the Upfield thread on AIBU

[PencilsInSpace]

Deletion message: Hi all, as there is already an active thread about this subject on the Feminism boards we're going to close this one.

I don't understand or agree with this decision.

1. people often start threads on the same subject on different boards - is it a new rule that there can only be one?

2. Lots of posters hide FWR so might not know what has happened

3. Upfield made their insinuations against all of MN, not just FWR

Can you say a bit more about your decision please?

it is a pit of vipers though. Sorry but it is.

Ah, yes - the tried and tested way of describing women who express views that are controversial or uncomfortable to hear intelligently and articulately.

@WeBuiltCisCityOnSexistRoles* it is a pit of vipers though. Sorry but it is.

I have no doubt that there are some valid points made, but as a rule they’re so overtaken by the amount of bile and vitriol on there that it’s not hard to see why it’s the most hidden topic on MN"

NoCauseRebel This just isn't true. Below is a screenshot of the the most recent threads in FWR Chat. Hardly inflammatory or hate filled or vicious! There really is no bile or vitriol, just intelligent/interesting discussions, and raising of awareness, of issues that affect women. Any individual posts that MN deem to be offensive will be deleted, just as they are in the whole site.

Interesting that FWR is always accused of being full of vipers, bile and vitriol and should be avoided, when it is a place mostly frequented by women discussing women's' rights. I actually find it refreshing to hear the voices of so many intelligent, articulate women who don't feel the need to apologise for their beliefs (as I note you do, interestingly).

Funnily enough, it's never twitter/other social media, people want to hide or avoid or silence, it's just women dominated spaces or discussion of womens' rights. And ironically, one of the very reasons we need the FWR boards.

I have never understood the “I hide the FWR boards” attitude. Do people think the nasty scary feminists are going to leap through the screen and perform enforced consciousness raising or kidnap baby boys and whisk them off to a re-education camp?

And I assume people who avoid FWR for being aggressive and viper-ish, avoid AIBU?

But of course AIBU is just robust debate and telling it like it is but when it's women discussing their rights, it's aggressive, vitriolic bile

What happened? What allegations? Would somebody mind summarising?

I find FWR depressing and fascinating in equal measure, I would say I have learned more from that board in the last few years than the rest of MN put together, there are some incredibly wise and knowledgeable women posting there. Unfortunately we don't use Flora so I can't change my buying habits to boycott them, but if I ever feel tempted I will resist.

This seems like a very ofd deletion to me. I can understand deletion where someone has posted the same question in multiple topics and the responses are split or muddled but I can't understand this one at all.

It’s not just having a strong viewpoint though is it. It’s like any radical supporter of a cause. They become so consumed by putting their point across that it generally only serves to alienate rather than encourage those who would otherwise be supporters.

Same with religion/environmentalism just to give two examples.

People might believe in a God but they wouldn’t want to be associated with the types who accost people in the streets demanding they be converted to their religion of choice.

Most people believe in doing something re climate change but extinction rebellion hasn’t warmed people to the cause because they’ve gone beyond delivering a message into the realms of hate-filled demands that people give up everything for the cause.

Etc etc.

Radical feminism is right up there with them, which is why most feminists wouldn’t want to be associated with them.

i realise that many people avoid FWR because there are a lot of threads on trans issues. While I agree that it is a very important topic, it is not the only thing feminists should be talking about. And the more people avoid, the less discussion there’ll be about all the other issues women face in the world today. So if you don’t like the dominance of trans issues, go and start threads about other things!

pinkyy Posters in fwr are often dealing with a lot of raw emotion and strength of feeling. It's also a fact that women are taught to be polite and kind but sometimes at the expense of being able to assert arguments effectively. The whole nasty woman thing. Some posts do come across curtly and there's enough goady fuckers to also make posters highly suspicious. And so an tendency to be sarky.

I used to find it too high brow and grumpy, now I only see the arguments and debate.

It's a trans issue in as much as women in fwr query medicalisation of young children exploring their identity, query highly sexist stereotypes, query where boundaries lie in terms of women being able to define what a woman is and therefore when and where they can be in single sex spaces and that lesbians have a right to say they are only attracted to adult human females.

A lot of people don't like women thinking or saying this. And so asked a margarine company to stop supporting them

Other thread:

Upfield (manufacturers of Flora marg, and Proactiv) don't want Mumsnet to buy their products any more www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3714947-Upfield-manufacturers-of-Flora-marg-and-Proactiv-dont-want-Mumsnet-to-buy-their-products-any-more

Thanks @NeurotrashWarrior

Maybe they’re planning to pay dividends in woke points?

How telling that people aren't taking issue with what we are saying, just the way we are saying it.

I'm always mystified - and slightly disappointed - when people talk about all the 'bile' and 'vitriol' on FWR. It seems to me that these posters haven't actually read the threads there and are simply jumping on a bandwagon of anti-FWR rhetoric, it's easier to believe the feminists are nasty than that they might have some points. My experience of the board is that women are articulate, thoughtful and compassionate. They often make sharp observations, sometimes with humour, but I don't see bile.

It reminds me too much of the 'these feminists are just hysterical little women who should be kept in their place' thinking that belongs in the 1950s.

MN should review this ridiculous decision.

I need to put in here, my personal issue, is that a very high number of children with autism are gender non conforming or begin to think that they are trans as they know they don't fit in and many are often very drawn to the Internet. There is now an increasing number of detransitioning people, often young women and autistic.

There are also increasing number of suicides of young transitioned teens and young adults who's MH issues were not properly dealt with once they went down the gender id services pathways (see work by Michelle Moore.)

If debate around the issues raises awareness and saves even one of these children, that's a good thing.

The hateful, nasty, vitriolic nest of vipers rhetoric has always been an anti feminist trope. It’s depressing that the same words are still being used since the days of rhe suffragettes.

I too find the FWR board incredibly interesting but also intimidating tbh

When I have stepped on to there it’s almost like you have to be a certain level of feminist to even post otherwise they can be really quite snarky. Also I’m pretty clever (!) but some of the language is so academic it’s almost difficult to understand.

And I do find it’s absolutely full of trans threads, and some definitely cross a line

Yes, this decision is definitely consistent with MN enabling the discussion of important issues 🤔.

“Also I’m pretty clever (!) but some of the language is so academic it’s almost difficult to understand.“

@ShirleyPhallus- I’ve seen your posts and I find it really hard to believe that you could possibly find FWR either intimidating or hard to understand!

Appalling decision. Please reinstate.

FWR is the most important part of the site. I cannot understand women who hide it...posters there are fighting for women's rights and safety and very lives actually, yet some people prefer to bury their heads. Even insult the very women fighting for THEM! The mind boggles. But anyway, crazy decision. Makes no sense.

Hello @mnhq, I'm another person who thinks this one was silly.

I know it's the weekend mods on at the moment, and they tend to be harsher on FWR, so maybe that's part of it. They tend to delete more and ban more it seems.

I hide the topic as it’s more radical than normal. It’s their way only

I don’t find FWR full of radical feminists at all. Yes there will of course be some but the vast majority are just, well, feminists Who are concerned about the erosion of women’s rights...

Bit odd to hide it IMO.

WeBuiltThisCity (awesome username btw!) I would love to think it's that but sadly I doubt it.

\ makes morning-after-the-wine-eyes //

What a bloody odd decision when the site is littered with multiple Megan markle and Brexit threads. By this logic there only ever need be one! Bit LOTR innit...