“Racism” towards the Irish on here

[Giantbanger]

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

According to this www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2012/12/beyond-the-pale.htm the Pale of Settlement re Jews in Russia for eg has a different etymology.

Care to comment @MichaelMumsnet?

Are we all agreed on draft 4 of the post with the amendment removing request for HQ to undergo training? Maybe I will leave it until tomorrow morning for anyone from this thread who hasn’t had a chance to see it yet?

IStand I wouldn't bother asking for an apology but just to remove the offensive phrase. Well done!

If not training, I think we need to encourage them to take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about.

(A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive.

we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ endeavour to gain an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship?

Does that^ cover it craicmammy?

Endeavour is easy to wriggle out of.

I prefer meaningful steps

Sorry jane, I’m only seeing your post now. I take your point but I do think an apology is in order after how they’ve handled this. I think they probably know that too.

Draft 5.

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

*shebangsit
*
'I believe that English people upon hearing of their atrocities, are proud of their prowess. How can you deal with that arrogance?'

It's still ongoing , just a different group of poor buggers this time (Muslims- to justify invasions in ME). That said, I don't think most ordinary English people are like that. Just the usual corrupt toffs in power.

Ok Is everyone happy with draft 5? I’m ready to send/post/share.

Yes good work Posie and thanks. 💐

thread here

Anyone who agrees post your username on the thread.

Thanks IStand. The reason I didn't want an apology is because if you have to ask for one it seems insincere when it's given but if others feel it's important then that's fine!

That’s a fair point jane!

I see the "it's not racist" has already started over there.

It’s so predictable. I think if we don't engage with people arguing against it on that thread and just keep reiterating that the thread is for signing in support.

The last thing we want is our Irish members (of which there are many) to feel unwelcome.

This is odd. Racism isn't just offensive to the direct target; it's offensive to everyone who despises racism.

I'm ashamed of some of them.

As a pp said, the term 'unwelcome' struck me as slightly strange. I'm Irish but also a longterm Mumsnet user, not some kind of temporary visitor who needs to be made to 'feel welcome' by people behaving politely -- this is my online space as much as it is anyone else's on here, and under the terms on which MNHQ say they operate, I have a right to not be subjected to discrimination or offensive language directed at my ethnicity, or to have people tell me I'm wrong to respond negatively to such behaviour.

I'm very disappointed by a lot of posters. I'll have to make a spreadsheet

under the terms on which MNHQ say they operate, I have a right to not be subjected to discrimination or offensive language directed at my ethnicity, or to have people tell me I'm wrong to respond negatively to such behaviour.

Well put. 👏

Bloody hell, some of the responses on the other thread

It’s exhausting reading this same rubbish time and time again.

People don't get (or don't want to get) that the phrase has no place in guidelines on what's acceptable to post regardless of whether or not they find it personally offensive.

I’m just going to make a formal complaint to the equality commission if MN haven’t come back to me with a decent response by close of play Monday.

That complaint will centre around

Negative attitude towards Irish mumsnetters on the boards using example of names, pronounciating, Halloween, beyond the pale, and the Irish writers threads, the Canada thread and possibly some more on Brexit as well as beyond the pale.

It will also centre on the moderation of trans and how strongly it is moderated compared to racist comments re the Irish and how I think that itself is racist.

@michaelmumsnet

*discriminatory.

Sorry. Not racist. Mind going ahead of typing