“Racism” towards the Irish on here

[Giantbanger]

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

Also I don't personally find the phrase "hugely offensive". I do think it is wildly inappropriate in guidelines about what's offensive and not though. I just don't want the language in any statement we make to be over the top and then take away from the validity of the complaint.

However, unlike Mumsnet, I am open to being schooled on what ppl find offensive or not. I do also appreciate you actually making the effort to write something suitable. X

My God, what a ridiculous response from Michael. Deliberately focussing on one small part of the problem in order to deflect from the bigger picture.

Why the stubbornness MNHQ? Is it so hard to admit you got this wrong, apologise sincerely and assure us that you're taking action? All you're doing with these pathetic responses is digging yourselves deeper into the hole.

Stop defending the indefensible.

I agree with inappropriate rather than offensive.

The impression given is that Mumsnet HQ has taken a collective eye roll at our complaints, shook their head and sighed and said, ‘ the Irish, complaining again!’

Is it worth adding that we have invited them to remove BTP from the guidelines, because ‘etymological types’ no longer consider it offensive.

Will you post on “site stuff” or craicnet?

Can’t post on craicnet. It’s Beyond The Pale.

That is absolutely one of the best pieces of mansplaining oops did I just assume MichaelMumsnet's gender

@giantbanger #careful now

Hi again. Please bear with us - we've said upthread that we're working to improve things and that we're listening. The conversations continue at MNHQ and we're more than happy to take on board your feedback.

Second draft.

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the thousands of racially offensive posts has become increasingly alarming. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In the anticipation of increased anti Irish sentiment in the U.K. as a result of Brexit negotiations and implementation we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ undergo training to create an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship with the aim that all staff will recognise both subtle and blatant anti Irish posts and threads as soon as they are made aware of them. We ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive. In refusing to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines Mumsnet HQ are deliberately and knowingly operating in breach of The Equality Act 2010 which says that “you must not be discriminated against because of your race. In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality.”
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this wildly inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

Lads, I’ve found someone to give MNHQ some training

goo.gl/images/5zfxuP

👍 from me with your draft posie

And 👍 from me

How did I know that would be a Ted link?

MichaelMumsnet with the best will in the world I've been a MN member for over 10 years, this isn't the first, second or even third time the issue of MNHQ responses to reports and concerns about posts regarding anti Irish, anti NI sentiments has been raised.
MNHQ haven't really been listening and as for taking feedback on board - really?

Couple of things:

Can we verify the "thousands of racially offensive posts" figure?

I don't think we can justify saying. "In the anticipation of increased anti Irish sentiment in the U.K. as a result of Brexit negotiations and implementation". It's presumptuous. This is an issue that needs to be dealt with regardless of Brexit.

Although I used it myself, I would remove "wildly".

I hope I'm not coming across as overly critical. I've got my business hat on and want our communication to be as effective as possible

Baby going for a nap shortly. I'll try to work an alternative suggestion up then

Good points raydan, no can’t verify unless Hq wants to release that info, I’m sure they’ll oblige i’ll remove the “thousands”. We know they had reports as we’ve made some ourselves.

Remove reference to Brexit ✔️

I’m torn on wildly. I think it is wildly inappropriate but perhaps that comes across as too dramatic for our purposes? Appropriate should suffice?

3

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has become increasingly alarming. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ undergo training to create an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship with the aim that all staff will recognise both subtle and blatant anti Irish posts and threads as soon as they are made aware of them. We ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive. In refusing to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines Mumsnet HQ are deliberately and knowingly operating in breach of The Equality Act 2010 which says that “you must not be discriminated against because of your race. In the Equality Act, race can mean your colour, or your nationality (including your citizenship). It can also mean your ethnic or national origins, which may not be the same as your current nationality.”
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

👍

Thanks for drafting.

I’m not a lawyer, but would drop the reference to the Equality Act as I’m not sure it works.

I think it’s simpler so say that it’s been pointed out that Irish people find the phrase inappropriate, and it certainly has no place in Talk Guidelines in appropriate language. It has been pointed out as offensive and it would be good manners of Mumsnet to remove it.

You could just say

In a way which discriminates against the Irish members of mumsnet on the basis of their race.

Third draft reads much better to me. Agree with @changehere about the equality act. I think the second section needs editing as it's a bit long.

Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has become increasingly alarming - I'm not sure on the phrase "increasingly alarming". I'd maybe say something like "inadequate and justifying the offense"

I think it's important for our language not to be too emotive so that the strength of our argument can shine.

And again apologies for only bringing changes rather than new suggestions. Tried writing something there but babog went into meltdown.

How about 'highly inappropriate'? It still emphasises the point but in less dramatic language.

I can’t think properly today I have a stinking headache. Sorry all.

Ok, working on draft 4!