“Racism” towards the Irish on here

[Giantbanger]

Can we please talk about it and can you please get your mods some training.

There was a thread that stood from yesterday. The op was goady and people were reporting the fuck out of it from yesterday.

It went this morning because the op was previously banned for being goady. No surprises there then.

But it contained a post from a member of MNHQ that really bothered me and I would like to discuss.

Add message | Report | Message poster EstherMumsnet (MNHQ) Mon 29-Oct-18 19:43:38
Hello!
Thanks for all the reports on this one. We'd like to leave this up as it's a pretty interesting discussion - one for the colonial/post colonial literature experts perhaps (yes - we know there's an argument over whether Irish literature counts as such!) - so please keep to the spirit of the site when discussing this and make your points politely. Thanks

So if there’s a “racist” thread about the Irish, it is an interesting discussion and the Irish need to be polite when telling racists they are racists.

(And Yes. I know in the dictionary definition Irish isn’t a race. It’s a subset ethnicity of Caucasian but the term is used more broadly in general use than the dictionary definition.)

Thank you @IStandWithPosie xxx

'The pale' as a means of distinguishing an area didn't originate with English rule in Ireland. Nor did the phrase 'beyond the pale'. Id agree it is the most well known example of where it's been used but as an indicator of widespread anti Irish sentiment on Mumsnet it's not the strongest example. I'm Irish myself (and yes I live here) and I've heard it many times used by other Irish people, as well as Dublin being referred to as 'the pale' in a jokey fashion.

I know there are other areas eg in Russia, but using it brings to mind the Irish Pale and many Irish people find it offensive.

No but it’s the phrase MNHQ have chosen to use.

I'd like them to stop using it too if it causes offence. I'm not personally bothered by it but I'm sure they can find something else to substitute so why not.

I agree that there is certainly a nasty undercurrent in many threads where Irish issues are discussed. I think that's an area to focus on. I remember when Irish baby name threads had comments from posters based in the UK about how 'common' they felt the names were. Now that really annoyed me.

4

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ undergo training to create an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship with the aim that all staff will recognise both subtle and blatant anti Irish posts and threads as soon as they are made aware of them. We ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines. The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

I also think it would behove Mumsnet mods to listen to Irish posters when they highlight something as an issue. I don't think there's necessarily a strong awareness among the team of what might cause offence.

I’ve had a bit of a think about what to replace the bits I was removing with but can’t come up with anything that sounded right so I’ve just left it with those parts removed. I think it reads ok? Any suggestions?

I’m not sure we should be asking for them to be trained, on reflection. That’s an internal MN issue. I suppose what I mean is as long as they are fair in how they mod and recognise the issues it doesn’t matter what they do to get them to understand the issues.

Like as a phrase it doesn't bother me, but I can see why it would bother others and therefore why it's inappropriate in a section of guidelines about not offending ppl. It isn't the core issue though. That's the refusing to acknowledge what we consider racist and the different treatment of different groups.

Sorry I posted the last item before seeing draft 4. I think it's reading quite well now Posie, thanks for allthe work! I agree with banger's last suggestion though and would remove the training reference.

How about

we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ endeavour to gain an understanding of the complexities of the Anglo-Irish relationship?

Also that michaelMN said “bear with us”. What, till Monday Michael? What’s another 3 days when you’ve waited 4 already? You gave your response. Don’t now tell us that wasn’t actually it, it was just a place marker.

Have just finished reading the thread. What an absolute joke of a response. That’s us told, back to knowing our place now.

Sasanachsplaining

#misefreisin.

Like other posters, I've raised 'beyond the pale' with HQ before, and given it up as a bad job. It's one of the stock phrases used my mods when they delete something for reasons not-quite-concretely-aginst-TG's, too. 'This is going because it's just a bit against the pale.'

lol ta me ag gaire at sasanachsplaining.

Why not say

It’s just bot really quite in the spirit of the site

*not

@ sasanachsplaining!

Exactly giant there are loads of ways to say the same thing. They already use different ways of saying it. Why the insistence on clinging onto that phrase knowing both (one of) it’s origins and that people on this site find it offensive.

I like version 4. Really well done.😍

It is definitely better to be less emotive. I was reallly struck when re-watching Gandhi that his success was due to the strategy of non retaliation. There is definitely something to be said for quietly turning the other cheek as if one gets emotive or aggressive it validates the prejudice that these people are savages. By contrast, not responding and so exposing their own inhumanity gets results.

Pointing out that Mumsnet unnecessarily insist on using a phrase with racist origins in their racism guidelines when they know it’s origins demonstrates their prejudice and is powerful.

This thread is torture akin to "you are held in a queue and will be answered shortly". I'm fully expecting Ain't No Mountain High Enough to start playing at any moment.
sasanachsplaining

Michael’s explanation that, ‘yes, we know that the phrase is racist is origin but think that it has moved on from its racist origins to be suitable to use in our racist guidelines’, is almost a parody of sasanachplaining. Certainly worthy of an AIBU?

That was an eyebrow-raising non-reply from Michael.
And yes, I really don't get why you wouldn't find an alternative phrase - of which there are plenty in this case - on being told a phrase you are using is offensive. (And FWIW I suspect that, as in the case of many derogatory/'reclaimed' terms, there is a difference in offensiveness depending on the speaker - I wouldn't assume that because I had heard Irish people using it in a humorous way that it was OK for me as an English person to use it). Also rather at the notion that unspecified 'etymology types' get more of a right to define a phrase's current offensiveness or otherwise than the people who feel denigrated by it for what are undeniably robust historical reasons.

I've just checked an online etymology dictionary which has this definition
Barely surviving in beyond the pale and similar phrases. Meaning "the part of Ireland under English rule" is from 1540s, via sense of "territory held by power of a nation or people" (mid-15c.).
Maybe they should change it to barely surviving except in Mumsnet Talk Guidelines