Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

Sisyphus

Women have jokes made about their genitalia, they are catcalled in the street, girls are harassed at school, jokes and defamatory comments made about their appearance, they are sexually abused as children, they are restricted in their choices due to their sex, they also have difficult emotions due to changes brought about by puberty, as they get sexualised comments on their body from males. Women are abused in relationships, thumped, in the he face so hard it cuts their head open because they are female and will not do what they are told. Suffer ABH. Not listened to and opinion is worthless because they are female, they are assaulted at work because they are female, they do not have their disability recognised as it presents differently in females to males. This is just my experience. This does not take into account those who are raped and subjected to worse abuse than me because they are female.

How is this a zillion times easier?

I'm sorry that was badly written, because I haven't written it before and it was difficult to write, I really don't want to derail, but I missed the key point that.... there are so many women on this site who have reported real horrors. I am by no means unique. And I do understand that some transpeople have experienced real suffering

But to pass legisilation which is actively going to harm women and girls in the name of supposedly protecting another group is obscene and cruel.

We must find another way

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/07/labour-and-tories-finally-see-the-truth-about-the-gender-debate/

James Kirkup:

'That fact is the reason Parliament and society accept the concept of single-sex spaces: women have a right to keep someone with a penis out of those spaces.

Upholding that legal right is possibly the founding principle of several women’s groups that have sprung up since the Government first announced its intent to make it easier for people to change their legal gender. Unlike the charities that lobby for transgender rights, the women’s groups — Woman’s Place UK, Fair Play for Women and ManFriday — have no corporate or public sector funding, and not much money at all. They are genuine grassroots political organisations that have sprung up from a concerned public. Those groups have made a difference. Back in the autumn, that point about female-only spaces was either often ignored or dismissed in political debate. Women talking about penises were ridiculed as bigoted cranks, accused of transphobic misinformation. Their meetings were subjected to violent protests (one person has been convicted of assault) and a bomb threat, threats that went shamefully unremarked on by most politicians. Nevertheless, the women persisted: the meetings continued; the campaigns went on; and it made a difference...

If you doubt the extent of that chilling effect, consider that bomb threat I mentioned. It was made against a Woman’s Place UK meeting in Hastings, in Amber Rudd’s ultra-marginal seat. Even though it would only take a few hundred angry women to switch votes to topple her, Rudd hasn’t yet responded to campaigners’ requests to speak about what the police call a “serious” incident. I find it hard to think of other circumstance in which a former Home Secretary would stay silent about a bomb threat made against a public meeting in their constituency.)

there are women who post regularly on MN FWR who either attended the meeting in Hastings or who felt unable to attend due to fear

#ManFriday originated on this site.
The women involved have been targetted, smeared, harrassed and doxxed

www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/a-womans-place-is-turning-the-tide-tickets-47592125328

Dear @justinemumsnet

Brighton is only 1 hour from London by train. If you can get your husband to come back early and look after the kids we will comp you a ticket. I mean it; please come. We have some cracking speakers.

sisyphys That's what I call "speaking truth unto power." Thank you.

From me too.

But to pass legisilation which is actively going to harm women and girls in the name of supposedly protecting another group is obscene and cruel.

YY. We all deserve protection from discrimination and abuse but making women budge up, is not the right, fair or decent thing here.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

I am sure that is true that having gender dysphoria would have made your life zillions of times harder than it is. As would being born into poverty, disabled, or Black, have made your life a zillion times harder that it is.
I am not certain that your ability to empathize with trans people justifies prioritizing their wants needs and desires over those of women who were born into poverty, disabled, or "non-white non-men".

Oh Sisyphus

SisyphusWasGenderCritical

Powerful personal testimony - thank you for sharing it.

Truth like yours strengthens our collective resolve.

..........

lillbrowndog glad you found your GC voice - please keep using it!

A zillion times?

The bloke who has secretly been getting off dressing up in his wife's underwear for years is now being validated and told he is brave for coming out as his authentic trans self? He has it a zillion times worse. Give me a break.

I'm not saying that some people don't suffer crippling dysphoria due to our gender constrained society. Effeminate boys. Butch girls. But self ID is not the answer. Particularly when there is evidence that levels of suicidal ideation is not fixed by interventions and transition.

JustineMumsnet When you meet Penny Mordaunt, please will you ask her if she thinks whether or not men whose hobby is autogynephilia fall under the term transwoman. (A serious and important question but probably not one for when she is slurping her tea).

@Sisyphuswasgendercritical You are courageous in sharing that and I don't blame you for being glad he's dead. Not one iota.

@SisyphusWasGenderCritical

A serious and important question but probably not one for when she is slurping her tea).

Especially if Penny looks at hashtag #girlslikeus

Article "A series of Freedom of Information (FoI) requests have revealed that councils have widely backed guidelines produced by organisations campaigning for the rights of transgender people but have not considered how the new approach will affect children – particularly girls.

The new guidelines tell teachers that if a transgender pupil wishes to share a changing room with "other young people who share their gender identity," they should be allowed to do so.

"There is no reason for parents or carers of the other pupils to be informed," it adds.

The guidelines say young people should be able to compete in the sports events for the gender they identify with, and says if other pupils are uncomfortable using changing rooms or toilets with transgender pupils, they should use other facilities or wait until the transgender pupil is done.

However none of the councils involved, nor the children’s commissioner, nor Education Scotland have carried out an equality impact assessment to ensure the rights and wellbeing of other pupils are unaffected. This means the impact on other students has not been taken into account.

This seems to often be the case with policies written by trans rights organisations.

There seem to be no impact assessments for other children, girls or women

In a large number of Local Authorities the Equalilities Act has been misquoted / misapplied. It should list sex as one of the 9 protected characteristics. This is likely the case in many public sector organisations and businesses.

This is why it is essential that we are able to talk about sex, especially on a parenting website, and also no doubt why there is a lobby of people who would resist us doing so.

Zillion times harder?!!
What a piss take.

Why is it our problem that a small minority cannot accept their own biology?
Why should WE be the ones who have to lie and pretend?
Why is our language being policed and changed just in case someone is offended by us being adult human females?

If someone is so fucking triggered by women simply talking about biological facts and their own experiences, then perhaps they need some help with their mental health.
Or perhaps just avoid MUMSnet, were it's pretty fucking obvious women will be talking about issues that affect them due to their biology.

Out of the Uni student bubble, I think more youth are gender critical than you believe.

@JustineMumsnet I'm one of those young (well, under 40) women with no children and one of the things that made me realise just how much sex matters was reading what the mothers on here had to say about how their reproductive role, dictated by biology, haf affected their lives. Recognition of sex as the root of misogyny soon followed

@SisyphusWasGenderCritical I am so sorry you and your siblings went through this.

Sisyphus

So sorry you went through that Sisyphus

Sisyphus I wish all those who say 'I've no problem with xyz female spaces etc' would read your powerful words and realise all of us need to stand up for all women, regardless of whether we've personally been affected.

We owe it to women like you.

Thank you for sharing your history, I'm so sorry that you had to do so to make this powerful point.

Especially if Penny looks at hashtag #girlslikeus

or searches 'trannie girls' on Twitter
**NB this includes pornography

Gah, tapped post too soon.

@JustineMumsnet I'm one of those young (well, under 40) women with no children and one of the things that made me realise just how much sex matters was reading what the mothers on here had to say about how their reproductive role, dictated by biology, has affected their lives. Recognition of biological sex as the root of misogyny soon followed. Perhaps the young people you know should listen to the women who've been through conception, gestation, parturition, lactation, miscarriage, and stillbirth, in order to understand just how those things affect our lives? Perhaps the young women you know might like to reflect on how men can force them to risk pregnancy through rape? Perhaps they might like to think about whether these teenage girls left incontinent by obstetric fistula are suffering because they "identify as women" or because of their biology? The difference between them and us is a matter of degree: British women still suffer injury during birth, we just get treated sooner.

I'm not denying sexism (obviously) but I honestly think if I'd been trans it my life would have been about a zillion times harder.

Of course it would. You're a white, educated, middle-class, privileged woman.

If you had gender dysphoria as well, yeah it would be tough.

But people with gender dysphoria is not what this is about. People with gender dysphoria are not doing the harm.

Good god woman, have you actually read any of these threads?

The threads that you are responsible for. The threads where the buck stops at your desk.

Look what the women here are being forced to say. To justify their existence. To justify their stance.

Is there any part of you that is humbled by extracting these profound, painful, distressing experiences from women, in order that they can make you understand?

I was going to ask you if you understood the gender critical position, since you're going to speak to Penny Mordaunt about it.

You don't.

I was also going to ask that if you did understand it, do you relate to it. Sympathise with it.

You don't.

Please, do not speak to Penny Mordaunt on my behalf.

I couldn't fucking stand a conversation that started with there are extremes on both sides of this argument.

Understanding biology, understanding misogyny, understanding the power dynamic between men and women, is not extreme.

You have tremendous power Justine. Arguably one of the most powerful women in Britain.

Unless you understand what the women here are talking about, please do not use that power to represent them.