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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation - response to yesterday's feedback

571 replies

JustineMumsnet · 04/07/2018 18:22

Hi all,

I’ve had lots of contact about about yesterday’s thread which has now maxed out so thought I’d put a response here.

First of all our guidelines absolutely do allow people to discuss biology and science. And we absolutely see why some of Penny Mordaunt’s words yesterday would raise concerns amongst those with a gender critical POV - so maybe it wasn’t, in retrospect, the best moment to make a point. Nonetheless we do believe that as a rule Spartacus-type threads are not conducive to a constructive debate and that trans people would be likely to feel attacked and/or excluded by them.

To state the obvious and as I’ve said before, this is an extremely polarised debate in which even the most basic terms are disputed, so if we’re going to have it here we’re in danger of being attacked from all sides (which we are in actual fact). Nonetheless, we think it’s important, so we’ll keep at it and we’ll keep trying to moderate it to make it as open and civil as we possibly can.

You should also know that I’m due to meet soon with Penny Mordaunt to discuss “any ideas you may have on the women and equalities agenda’' and I will of course reflect the strong opinion of many Mumsnetters wrt to this issue and ask her to do a webchat too.

Thanks, as ever, for your input.

OP posts:
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9
Ilikelotsofthinngs · 04/07/2018 22:06

Wtaf? A zillion times.
What utter utter bollocks and crap.
Yea you should check your privilege, there are thousands of women on this site who would bloody love to identify out of the shitty hands they've been dealt by virtue of being women, ie their biology.
What have young people got to do with it? Do I count as young in my early thirties?
So what if people get offended? There are loads of threads that could be offensive to differenf people, most people with any sense are not looking for offence.
Why don't the people that are so offended by women talking to and about each other, fuck off somewhere else? This is feminism and women's rights, it's not compulsory reading.
But they won't fuck off, because it's not about being offended or excluded. They won't stop until women have nowhere left to talk.
Anything we say is offensive to misogynists, they hate us having the audacity to gather, to speak, to support each other and fight back. Bloody women, be good, be quiet.
Fuck that shit. No.
I am Spartacus.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 04/07/2018 22:06

How any woman can stand by, saying that it is absolutely fine to have boys who identify as girls sleeping in the same tents as girls, without one arm very tightly wrenched up their back, is beyond me.

I mean, why can't they see this is a huge, massive, stonking, luminous SAFEGUARDING issue, before you even start thinking about the kids that will be STERILE for life just because they are deemed to not fit in with flipping stereotypes; which we have been trying to break down for decades?

iamawoman · 04/07/2018 22:06

how can a middle aged man who has had a family and career and then when his sexual fetish spirals out of control is compelled to identify as a transgender woman for further validation be one of the most oppressed, come on.......

Worldwide, i agree there are some transgender people living on the fringes of society and have little way out of that, but also there are millions and millions of girls and women who are butchered, raped, beaten, married off to old men, enslaved in poverty, die in childbirth, forced into childbirth because abortion is not an option........biological females are most oppressed due to numerous ways in which we are oppressed and the volume of females from a statistical perspective. MNHQ - stop trying to cover your back and support women, this is what you set up for website for isnt it??

Ilikelotsofthinngs · 04/07/2018 22:14

You're pandering to bullies Justine.
You must see what they're trying to do, there are multiple examples of it mentioned on this thread. They don't want us to have anything.
They will use any dirty low down tactic to take it all, our spaces, our voices, our health, our very identitities.
They won't stop, so you can either be complicit in the silencing and erasure of women, and get taken down anyway, with your integrity In taters.
Or go down fighting with us.

R0wantrees · 04/07/2018 22:15

This is useful thread Justine if you see Penny Mordant might you please suggest she (or someone in the Women's & Equalities dept) looks at by way of briefing:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

ResistanceIsNecessary · 04/07/2018 22:16

Gosh I wish I could have identified my way out of being sexually assaulted at the age of 11.

I wish I could have identified my way out of being sexually harassed throughout my teens and 20s.

I wish I could have identified my way out of sitting in numerous job interviews and being asked quite bluntly if I had kids or planned to have any - and FYI the last time it happened was 3 years ago! Just because it's illegal doesn't stop it from happening.

I don't get to take off my biological sex at the end of every day. I'm not like dear old "Pips" Bunce, who can decide to play at being a woman when he feels like it. I bet "Pips" doesn't identify as a woman when he's facing a crucial business meeting full of blokes. He's never had the experience of a room full of men assuming he's the secretary. Or there to make the tea.

Ereshkigal · 04/07/2018 22:18

Can I suggest that you attend a Woman's Place meeting? And actually listen to what women have to say before you meet Penny Mordaunt? By all means also attend a transgender event. Make your own mind up.

Miranda Yardley is a transsexual on here who I'm sure would speak to you privately if you wish.

These are great suggestions Justine.

Ereshkigal · 04/07/2018 22:20

They won't stop, so you can either be complicit in the silencing and erasure of women, and get taken down anyway, with your integrity In taters.
Or go down fighting with us.

Or we win! We might not, but as you say better to fight for it.

SisyphusWasGenderCritical · 04/07/2018 22:20

I'm going to post this, and then I'm out.

@JustineMumsnet
I was sexually abused from a young age by my father. So were my two sisters. I also have two brothers, they weren't sexually abused, because that would have made my father a 'poof', something he despised.

He did however, frequently batter us all viciously, hit us with (the buckle end of) a belt. I still cower if my husband takes his belt off quickly. I have asked him not to, but he can forget, because he's not a fucking monster.

As children, we were locked outside the house in the cold for hours, locked in the bathroom, made to sit in ways that I now know are 'stress positions'. We were lined up by age, all to battered and beaten, one at time, according to age, each waiting for the others' beating to be finished before we got our own. My brothers and sisters have discussed how each of us had it better or worse. We have joked about how I, the fourth of five children, probably got the beatings easier because by that time in the proceedings, my father was a bit knackered. We have discussed how the youngest 'got it easy'. But then he didn't after we all left home.

Too many events to document: I went to school with a fully discernable handprint bruise on my face at age 12, and the teachers said nothing. Nor did they say anything to the visible belt strap marks on my legs during PE. (The same teachers did ensure that I had my big fucking blue gym pants under my gym skirt though). To know that all your school mates knew exactly what the fuck was going on though was pure humiliation.

I threatened him with telling my mother when I was a 19 year old student and was on the ground while he was kicking the shit out of me. Story too long to tell. My mother obviously knows about the beatings but not the sexual abuse (no, I don't want to go there). He tried to kill himself but the useless bastard didn't know which drugs to take. After they pumped his stomach, he descended into the finest display of DARVO I had ever seen until I saw the tactics of the TRA agenda

My father tried to do the same to my niece years later. She was 3. She was also the brightest little girl ever and told her mother. My sister confronted him. He denied it. He then stuck a vacuum hose in his tailgait.

There was never any remorse. He did it because he thought we would be sorry and because he wanted, once again, to punish us. 25 years later and there has never been a day that I haven't been glad that he was dead.

I was diagnosed with PTSD, have had some serious issues with trust and had it not been for my DH, I would be dead.

I will tell you why I am involved in this debate. Because I know the fear of men. Because I can't walk away and abandon women when vulnerable. Because I read the testimonies of women on your site and I know how devastating Self ID will be for them.

Trans people are not the most oppressed nor the most vulnerable. I am sure they have been treated extremely badly and we should all work to prevent that happening again.

But they are not the most oppressed people in the world. I am not even saying that women are at this point, because God knows my brothers lived through a particular Hell too.

But it's WOMEN who are going to be punished if the Self ID legislation is passed

ErrolTheDragon · 04/07/2018 22:21

support women, this is what you set up for website for isnt it?

'Mumsnet was created by Justine Roberts who came up with the idea of a website to help parents pool information and advice following a disastrous first family holiday with her one-year-old twins. '

It's greatly to Justin's credit that MumsNet became more that she might have originally been thinking of. A large part of the success has, I think, been due to the fact that it's largely self-moderating within reasonable 'talk guidelines', and I think the reason this worked on Mumsnet whereas in might not elsewhere is because the core users a parents and mostly mothers. Women of various ages, some experience of the real world and its problems, with real responsibilities. It's greatly enriched by being open to all, but that core is crucial to its ethos and operation.

R0wantrees · 04/07/2018 22:21

Resistance
Philip / Pips Bunce was also part of the meeting about Girl Guides at Speakers House recently hosted by Maria Miller:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3250175-Girl-Guides-Panel-discussion-at-Speakers-house-woman-male-woman-male-male-male

The Girl Guide leaders and concerned parents about the changes to Guiding policy were not.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 04/07/2018 22:22

Plus as i keep banging on about - to keep parroting TWAW means that TW will be invited for smears they will never need, whilst prostate cancer is growing inside some of them not being discovered...you cannot identify out of male diseases. It is literally going to kill people at some point.

Ilikelotsofthinngs · 04/07/2018 22:23

Yes Ereshkigal, we might win, but after the last couple of days I'm not feeling so hopeful.
But fight we will, this is one particular hill I'm willing to die on.

Ereshkigal · 04/07/2018 22:26

Me too.

Ilikelotsofthinngs · 04/07/2018 22:28

Sisyphus, I'm so sorry you went through that. Flowers

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 22:29

Or go down fighting with us.

Justine's privilege means she'll be the last of us to feel the effects of the reversal of women's rights. And then she won't get it so bad anyway.

She doesn't need to fight. Not in the same way as many here.

FermatsTheorem · 04/07/2018 22:29

sisyphys Flowers That's what I call "speaking truth unto power." Thank you. And so sorry for what you went through.

Ereshkigal · 04/07/2018 22:29

Plus as i keep banging on about - to keep parroting TWAW means that TW will be invited for smears they will never need, whilst prostate cancer is growing inside some of them not being discovered...you cannot identify out of male diseases. It is literally going to kill people at some point.

YY. And many serious mental health problems will also go undiagnosed as any symptoms will be assumed to be about the gender issues. And people with a mental health condition are a vulnerable hard to reach group when it comes to physical health.

Cascade220 · 04/07/2018 22:33

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

QuarksandLeptons · 04/07/2018 22:35

Justine, I thank you for this forum. I hope you keep letting women speak. I appreciate we don’t know what is going on behind the scenes. I have to hope that you are on the side of women

QuarksandLeptons · 04/07/2018 22:36

Sisyphus- I don’t know what to say. I am so sorry you endured that nightmare Flowers

bd67th · 04/07/2018 22:37

@snappity A lot of the biological claims by gender critical feminists are offensive to trans and intersex women (like myself) and I would like to see more of them deleted.

Are you actually saying that biological facts offend you? My uterus will give me agonising cramps for two days per month and spread its lining cells all over the inside of my abdomen (a.k.a. endometriosis) and I had to pay hundreds of pounds to travel abroad to get the frameless IUS that would stop that. I need to be able to talk about that, to be able to tell other women about the Fibroplant and to be able to tell HCPs that I have it and lobby the NHS to provide it here. If I can't talk about my reproductive anatomy, I and other women continue to suffer needlessly. In the light of that, you being offended by my female biology doesn't even register on my list of considerations. My health and that of other women trumps your feelings.

LangCleg · 04/07/2018 22:37

littlbrowndog but you've got a unique voice my lovely and you are using it well. I love your posts.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 04/07/2018 22:37

Sisyphus. Bloody hell.

RedToothBrush · 04/07/2018 22:37

That's what I call "speaking truth unto power."

That ^ and

That's what I also call heroic.