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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

999 replies

JustineMumsnet · 13/06/2018 09:31

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

OP posts:
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7
Pratchet · 13/06/2018 12:44

Sex means reproductive role.

LaSqrrl · 13/06/2018 12:44

If TIM is now out of vogue, why not MMAF?
Male masquerading as female?
Give me an hour, I can come up with a whole new lexicon! Wink

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 12:47

Gr implies something official has gone on

Ereshkigal · 13/06/2018 12:48

I appreciate MNHQ trying to find clarity in this. But it is minefield.

This. It is hard, I understand that.

GeordieTerf · 13/06/2018 12:48

It looks fair and balanced. Smile

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 12:48

How about FIT for female identified trans and MIT for male identified trans?

SarahAr · 13/06/2018 12:49

When people talk about a male toilet they do not mean a sexual dimorphic mammal with XY chromosomes :-) They mean the toilet used by men. And this is the problem with the term male - in common use it means associated with men - not people's biology.

And with respect to biology plenty of transwomen do not have XY chromosomes and plenty of natal women do not have XX chromosomes so even using the biological definition it is not particularly helpful.

Ereshkigal · 13/06/2018 12:50

Indeed. I don't care what language contortions I have to go into, I am not using the word "woman" or "female" in relation to male-born human beings ever.

YY.

PermissionToSpeakSir · 13/06/2018 12:50

@MNHQ & @JustineMumsnet I appreciate that you have had an extremely tough time in all this and that it has taken a lot of thought to come up with a statement you can stand by.... but...

I think you shouldn't specify 'TIM' or 'cis' or any other words for that matter, because it is too controlling of the discourse.

The reason why some people find 'TIF' and 'TIM' offensive, is because they find any mention of their biological sex whatsoever offensive, since they are framing their whole lives around denying the reality of their biological sex, which is a fragile psychological position to be in.

Gender critical feminists absolutely and essentially need to be able to speak about biological sex and its impact upon our lives, so if they can't say TIF or TIM they will need to find a new acronym to describe people of a particular sex who also identify as something else, and it is particularly essential they are able to do this at this time, because of legislative/societal changes that are affecting women.

People who identify as the opposite sex from themselves will find any new terminology or acronym that acknowledges their (politically significant) sex offensive too, if they find TIF or TIM offensive - where will it end?

As for cis - really? It does piss me off to see/hear it, the same with TERF (which I recall first being used aggressively and sneeringly back in the day) and although I think neither word have a place in official documents, guidelines or publications, on an informal chat forum like MN- there's no real harm done is there?

I do, however, agree with your stance on excessive reporting. That, to me, should be nipped in the bud since it is used to silence and stifle discussion and debate. I believe the best position is to let things stand if possible rather than to 'delete to be on the safe side'.

People might try to bully MN by screenshotting and saying 'look at the terrible things allowed to stand on this forum' - but have you seen the misogyny that is deemed acceptable to stand on Twitter and Facebook? You are doing nothing wrong by siding with women having the right to discuss what affects us (but it would also be nice to do it with accurate language too).

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 12:50

Wrt chromosomes I'm not suggesting we reduce ourselves to XX. We are women, and female. TIM becomes trans XY. Space bar needed so it doesn't look like t**y which is awful.

Fingernailvarnish · 13/06/2018 12:51

How do you make this A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing anatomical structure, or other attributes of sex such as with hormone therapy. a sticky key?

I want to avoid deletions.

Maryz · 13/06/2018 12:51

"plenty of transwomen do not have XY chromosomes and plenty of natal women do not have XX chromosomes"

Really? How many is plenty? An approximate percentage will do.

TheMythOfFingerprints · 13/06/2018 12:52

I mostly lurk on fwr, but I am gc.

Is my understanding that we are allowed to say on a thread about religion that there is no God, but on a thread about conflict between trans rights and women's rights that a male is a male, correct?

GardenGeek · 13/06/2018 12:54

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

AllyMcBeagle · 13/06/2018 12:55

It's a mouthful but may I suggest:

Person with male biology who identifies as a woman (PMBIAW)

Person with female biology who identifies as a man (PFBIAM)

And then these can also be adapted to deal with non-binary etc. people.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 13/06/2018 12:56

It's certainly an interesting point in time when we are told that a company will "allow" people to discuss biology and science.

Yet THIS ^^ is where we are

Progressive as fuck.

Saying we can't call males males.

Macareaux · 13/06/2018 12:58

gardengeek
I'm happy to say very naicely that transwomen are men.

I don't have a problem being nice. I have a problem denying objective reality.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 13/06/2018 12:59

Myth

Trans ideology is the New World Religion.

Any deviation from the Trans-dogma is Heresy, for which you WILL be punished

Pratchet · 13/06/2018 12:59

Can we say transgender male. Paris Lees is biologically male and legally male but we can't use 'he' (fair enough) but can we say 'trans male'?

BettyDuMonde · 13/06/2018 13:02

I’m concerned that very specific rules around language will make this discussion in accessible to people with English as a second language or with learning difficulties. Considering that women who fall into either or both of those categories are particularly vulnerable, I think it’s important to flag up.

PencilsInSpace · 13/06/2018 13:02

Thanks as ever to MNHQ for allowing this debate. I appreciate what a lot of work it must be Flowers

Sex is a protected characteristic.

We need to be able to name sex. We need to be able to say whether a person is male or female. If we can't do that, we can't do feminism. Might as well close the board.

'TIM' is not synonymous with 'trans woman'. It's an umbrella term for all the male people who have a trans identity, or who say they do: transwomen, transfeminine, genderqueer, non-binary etc. plus males with a crossdressing fetish, those who are IDing to prey on women and girls and those who are just taking the piss.

We need a word for the entire group of male people who we are being pressured to accept in female spaces (in the widest sense).

This is nothing to do with how any particular individual in this group might identify. It's to do with the fact they are male. The debate is not 'about what it is acceptable to say, or not to say, about trans people, and changing opinions about gender and sex'.

The debate is about women's rights and how we preserve them.

Maybe we should just keep TIM, TIF, TERF and cis? And everyone can lump it all round?

Yes I agree with this. None of these words should be used as a personal attack but beyond that they should be allowed.

We’ll be introducing a three strikes system whereby users deleted more than three times in any rolling six week period will have their membership automatically suspended and we’ll then take a view as to whether they will have membership reinstated.

If you can automate this you can automate notifications so that posters know they've had something deleted.

This will be gamed horribly though and I think it's a big mistake.

BarrackerBarmer · 13/06/2018 13:05

I was just coming on here to comment that I shall be using XY(trans) or XX(trans) henceforth, Pratchet.

Or just XX and XY when identity status is not relevant to the point in hand.

(And XXY, XO etc for discussions where disorders of sex development are pertinent.)

I'll continue to use biological terminology for anatomy. Although I'm considering reverting from vagina to the hideous 'birth canal' term to avoid conflation between the female organ and the XY surgically constructed version which uses that name.

Chromosome status is objective, factual, immutable and biological.
trans is in no way objectionable.
The only objection to the factual XY(trans) could be "You may not state the truth because I forbid it"

This is as factual and dispassionate as it gets. There is no hidden or derogatory meaning that can be associated with these terms. They can't be pared down any further.

I'm hoping this is the final line in the sand. Because beyond this line is a complete prohibition of truth. We're right at the cliff edge now.

GibbertyFlibbert · 13/06/2018 13:07

This is an highly positive step and I am grateful. TIM and other misgendering terms are clear problems. Until joined here I hadn't realised that anyone objected to cis, but they do so I have stopped using it.

TERF wasn't a term I had come across before joining here. Again easy to avoid but if TERF is a problem then I can't see how MRA and TRA could be acceptable. I think either all or none are acceptable.

ToeToToe · 13/06/2018 13:11

It's certainly an interesting point in time when we are told that a company will "allow" people to discuss biology and science.

This was the one thing that stuck out like a sore thumb on that statement. It's not brave, or edgy, or a matter of free speech to be able to discuss biology and science. It's factual discourse - but then I suppose, "facts are for pussies" now? (Dom Cummings, to the HOC Select committee - re Brexit).

Can I please go to sleep until this is all over? Someone wake me when common sense has prevailed.

AssignedPuuurfectAtBirth · 13/06/2018 13:11

Why are you objecting to 'MRA' Gibb?

You do know MRAs call themselves MRAs?

And you have really shown your hand now btw