Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

I don't think TIM is that much of a loss, it was easy and convenient but I do completely agree with Barracker here. Trans + chromosomes is at the edge of truth. However I'll still use woman and man, for woman and man, and I'll ask for clarity when posters I don't know use those words.

Bit hard on people like GIB, SMG etc who don't know what they mean by those words but what can you do.

I don't think MNHQ are saying TIM will very "banned" I just think they mean be cautious as to it's use.

*be not very.

The problem with using xx/xy is that it is not universally understood by the general public.

Waddlelikeapenguin

Let's get it known by the public then.

I don't think MNHQ are saying TIM will very "banned" I just think they mean be cautious as to it's use.

I get that, but if you use it to accurately describe what you are talking about - a trans identified male, then someone takes offence, combs through your history to report it they you may suddenly find yourself banned from the forum without warning.

MRA means "men's rights activist" - it's a thing. Men like Paul Elam and Mike Buchanan make a living out of it.

Likewise TRA - "trans rights activist" - also a thing. Such as Edinburgh Action for Trans Health.

Can't see HQ making these terms deletable.

I'm happy to lose TIM if we also lose cis. Dropping cis is a massive blow to TRA ideology.

Justine said she didn't want to have a list of banned terms but rely on the spirit. I don't see how trying to construct alternatives to TIM which involve the same refusal to accept gender / sex based on identity is consistent with the spirit.

I haven't read all replies but I really do need a succint term with which to describe a "trans women" which doesn't include the word woman or female because that's what it's all about for me.

I've seen deletions because they posted a ...

But I do refuse to accept sex/gender based on self identity, Gibberty.

Sex is a biological fact.

Assigned i like the principle but I want the conversation to be accessible to a wide demographic right now.
Have you ever read those surveys about how many people know where their kidneys are etc

I see LM on Twitter is expressing pleasure that misgendering, deadnaming and use of TIM have been banned and people who use them will be 'deleted'; although LM believes banning TIM and CIS is "a false equivalence".

And with respect to biology plenty of transwomen do not have XY chromosomes and plenty of natal women do not have XX chromosomes so even using the biological definition it is not particularly helpful.

Please stop hijacking the intersex conditions to further the trans agenda - it is offensive to intersex individuals and as a group. I think we have asked nicely for that about a thousand times already, and yet you persist. Keep to the trans case only, not the intersex one. They refuse to be under your trans umbrella. You want me to get links as to how offensive this is?

Oh, and to get you up to speed, intersex activists are very much AGAINST genital surgery until adulthood. Not the trans agenda is it?

YY.

Please leave the intersex community out of this. They are not there to be your ‘gotcha’ moment.

I'll say it again xx & xy are not emotionally meaningful terms - they are detached and dry. If you say 'typical male behaviour' it resonates. If you say 'typical xy behaviour' it is a detached, dry comment.

Feminism is all about using the language of male and female, women and men, boys and girls to examine power relationships and inequality. To start exclusively using xx and xy to describe male and female, is extracting sex inequality re people who identify as trans, from normal discourse.

Also, people who find biology offensive, will still be offended by it anyway, so avoiding TIM and TIF will have served no purpose.

But I do refuse to accept sex/gender based on self identity, Gibberty. Sex is a biological fact

This with knobs on. TRA want to ban language which will enable us to express that. TRA can gloat how they like - #wegotthis

I agree on sacrificing TIM for cis

Cis is everything to TRA. Thanks MN.

"Why are you objecting to 'MRA' Gibb?"

I don't personally object to either TRA or MRA but they seem to parallel TERF and I think all three should be treated consistently.

I'm happy to lose TIM if we also lose cis. Dropping cis is a massive blow to TRA ideology.

But there is another way to say cis, eg non-trans. Is there another way to say TIM that is acceptable but that doesn’t include the word woman? That’s what we need to know.

Permissible i agree totally!! I only mean, trans XY instead of TIM and trans XX instead of TIF. I would still say male violence, male behaviour, I would still say I'm a woman, I'm female, female socialisation etc. Only in the specific circumstance replacing TIM and TIF.

Trans XY?

Also agree on losing TIM and cis.

I've never understood why misgendering is an immediately deletable offence - while calling gc feminists "cis" is allowed. It's the exact same thing - we have been very clear on why this is offensive.

cis & terf can go - I never want to read or type the words again (fat chance!)