Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

I don't see the issue saying transwoman or transman or mtf/ftm which are generally accepted terms. As long as it's ok to point out biological male/femaleness. Will that get anyone deleted/banned?

That's where the issue for me personally is, call yourself what you like socially but sex segregation where it matters please. I'm not going to agree 'transwomen are women'. Transwomen are transwomen, surely, otherwise what are they transitioning from and to?

lol I mean a trans man is male. THAT works for me. Loool

I can live with the terms 'transwoman' and 'transman'.

Especially if they are used in the way that makes sense ie transwoman = woman who is trans = female identifying as male and transman = man who is trans = man identifying as woman

I was so confused on MN to begin with when I realized that for some reason they meant the opposite of what I thought.

How about people who have no idea what a man or a woman is stay out of the convo because they have nothing to contribute. That's how things usually work.

Beachcomber
OFF TO GULAG

What did I say?! 🤔

How about some kind of ‘symbol’ to discuss MtF trans people, a bit like Prince.

Or what's wrong with just MtF?

Or what's wrong with just MtF?

As with "transwoman" it is horribly exclusionary. It excludes gender fluid, and non-binary trans people for a start.

That's why it's so bizarre that MNHQ have decided that TIM/TIF has to go - they are neutral terms (trans identifying male /female) that don't exclude anybody

I was kidding Supermatch

Can I still refer to myself as a TIM? Because that is how I describe myself now. Though I must admit I do like TIXY

That seems to be allowed so far. I say this because they have not banned the women with terf in their name. Or maybe they have.

I am worried that I am going to be in trouble for referring to people as transgender advocates.

"How about people who have no idea what a man or a woman is stay out of the convo because they have nothing to contribute. That's how things usually work"

Literal LOL 😂😂

ItsAll - I'd use the terms the other way around

Transwoman = person who was not born female but who has gone through some kind of transitional process (even if that is thinking "I want to be a woman")

Transman = person who was not born male but who has gone through some kind of transitional process (even if that is thinking "I want to be a man")

But without the space: otherwise there is an equivalence drawn between, say, "trans woman" and "black woman" which is misleading at best.

Transwomen aren't women, they are transwomen

I have a feeling that using MTF and FTM would be greeted by howls of outrage and deletion, going by previous threads.

Can I still refer to myself as a TIM? Because that is how I describe myself now.

I think you can refer to yourself as whatever you like. That's the point isn't it? You're defining your own identity?

You just don't get to define other people's.

Ftm and mtf are lies.
As are transwoman and transman.
You can't change sex.

Just to be safe we could copy and past the list of qualified people as disseminated by the advocacy groups like trans health and stonewall.

For example Stonewall defines the term trans: "Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois."

It excludes gender fluid, and non-binary trans people for a start.

Do you often discuss them? Gender fluid aren't likely to be self IDing to a different gender as it is supposed to be permanent. Non binary advocate for gender neutral spaces.

You only really seem to want to talk about trans women anyway.

Seriously though. The problem with this kind of rule is that it makes people dig their heels in.

Women are socialized to be nice to and to defer to men. There is always an underlying threat of violence to this socialization of course. And it works.

So we beat around the bush, use euphemisms, use acronyms, etc.

But we all know what we mean. When we use MTT, TIM and even MTF what we are doing is beating around the bush and avoiding actually referring to transwomen as men cos we're told that is rude and unacceptable.

And now we are being told that even our beating around the bush acronyms are not compliant enough. But "science" and "biology" are tolerated. Ok fine, so let's stop politely using euphemisms and let's embrace science and biology.

Which means that the only thing that is left is to those who aren't drunk on Kool aid is to refer to transwomen as "male trans people".

Which despite being factually, biological and scientifically accurate was absolutely not acceptable previously. Which is why the euphemisms and acronyms came about....

If I were to get banned for using "male trans person" instead of "TIM" that would make me very concerned and it would make a mockery of HQ's policy on biology / science being OK.

You gotta hand it to trans ideology, it's cunning stuff...

It's not a Stonewall forum though is it. It's Mumsnet.

Transgender advocates have made it clear that using the term transwoman to describe a male is acceptable while trans woman is not, or maybe the other way round. They move the goalposts so often it is hard to keep up.

It could work if the ‘F’ stood for feminine rather than female. Male to female is a lie, but if they want to say they are now feminine, would this be acceptable? Hmmm just pondering, or are there issues with that. This realistically describes a gender non-conformist to me, which is what trans is...?

Not really Beachcomber MTT and TIM deny their identities.

M2F at least acknowledges that they have transitioned to female.

You only really seem to want to talk about trans women anyway.
Males are the ones who are directly affecting women and girls, so yanno, Feminism?
The gender fluid d00d who is a police officer and takes his fetish to work has been discussed at length here but I notice the transgender advocates avoid those threads.

They haven't transitioned to female

Mumsnet will always stand in solidarity with vulnerable or oppressed minorities.

I think I understand the sentiment but surely sometimes an oppressed minority is oppressed because society at large doesn't want to adopt a particular group as normalised behaviour i.e.terrorists or freedom fighters. Both would no doubt claim to be oppressed minorities.

Mumsnet has always been amazing for allowing debates to get quite heated - we need this to be a developed society, but we need a neutrality of stance in moderation don't we?

I haven't posted on the feminism threads but I'm fascinated and scared in equal meassure by what's happening. I'm now at the stage I'm not sure what I'm allowed to post even here, so my speech is no longer free. Debate is repressed.