Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

I'm with you Assigned, 100 per cent. Spartacus.

Yeh, me too, Spartacus.

And yes, I will be dammed if I will refer to Ian Huntley as a woman, when he is a double child murderer, a serial rapist, the reason we have DBS checks and the fact that he, allegedly, has asked to be addressed by the name of his victim's mother. Oh, and that there is absolutely zero evidence, apart from the person on Twitter, that he does identify as trans.

Anyone could say that about anyone, and we would be forced to call them women?

I'm sure Huntley will identify as trans in the future tho, why wouldn't he?

I would not look forward to that headline ...defender of free speech claims women have to call the most notorious double child murderer she, or be banned.

Viva forever

AssignedPuurfectAtBirth I know you're wound up but there's no need to keep throwing insults and accusations around. MNHQ have been really clear laying down the rules (which are very fair) so why not be a good sport and play by them?

I won't refer to Ian Huntley as a woman ever.

To call someone 'they' or 'them' is very much like calling someone 'it'

I profoundly disagree with this view as this is assuming that the usage of 'they', 'them' and 'it' is somehow bad in the use of pronouns. It is not.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_(pronoun)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_pronoun

Lol @ Daim

Pyrrhic

I am not being presumptuous or defeatist.

Do you really think that an individual who gets upset about an incorrect preferred pronoun is going to be happy with another incorrect pronoun being used.

I mean come on!

I actually have experience of this. I write a lot of "gender unknown" prose - think instruction manuals or guidelines. I wrote something for a group which has some non binary people and a transgender woman.

I got grief because I didn't write he/she/they. I also got lectured by the non-binary natal females when I used "they" when referring to something that the so called "cis" women were doing. Apparently not using "her" when referring to "cis" women was erasing non binary identify.

It's a flipping minefield and feels more like a way to lecture, predominantly, females on their language use.

Bowl - LM's Twitter followers are already urging as many reports of Mumsnet users as possible to get them banned.

Meanwhile LM still seems to be waiting for the apology he's requested from Mumsnet HQ to all the "trans women" who've been victimised on here.

What about, for example, Ian Huntley - is it ok to say he is a man and call him 'he'.

We think we've allowed for flexibility and context by saying 'it's likely' to be deleted, rather than 'it will be deleted'.

Get the fuck out of here. Ian Huntley is a murdering rapist man and there is absolutely NO evidence that HE is or identifies as anything other than Ian Huntley. And you would ban people for saying so?

Wowsers.

so why not be a good sport and play by them?
Like the way L. Hubbard did? Sometimes you need to say that the rules are not fair, even if they are the rules............

Ian Huntley is a murdering rapist man. And always will be.

This is the problem with people my age who have grown up with Monty Python and Blackadder-type irreverent humour. This new gender ideology and "thou shalt not offend me" - I just can't get on board. It's too ridiculous - the young woke generation are just to serious, and take themselves and their identity politics way too seriously.

I know! "No one has the right not to be offended and the last time I looked, no one died from it"

@katemumsnet can you clarify my previous question as to whether any use of any pronouns at all is considered hurtful?

Human beings cannot change sex.

Sex is a biological fact. Men cannot become women. A penis is a male sexual organ.

This policing of women's language on Mumsnet, by Mumsnet, is concerning - and seems to be driven by a handful of very vocal twitter account who flood the MumsnetTowers twitter on a daily basis with screenshots. HQ - you are isolating, policing and banning women here - your actual members - because of a few vocal tweeters.

It's akin to suddenly policing the Philosophy/Religion board and telling people they cannot say God doesn't exist, and banning atheist posters.

Ian Huntley is a murdering

Ian Huntley is a child murderer and a man.

Bowl - LM's Twitter followers are already urging as many reports of Mumsnet users as possible to get them banned.

Sigh. Yeah I’m not surprised. I prepare for my imminent banning then :) I may have scienced a few people off recently....

Seriously though MNHQ the three strikes thing is a problem. It’s far too open to abuse. All someone with intent needs to do is get a half dozen followers to make accounts and report from different sources. Report enough, from enough different people and something will stick and the poster will be banned. You won’t be able to determine if it’s ‘real’ MNers doing it if someone on Twitter has many followers because it won’t look like a single source high volume of reports.

MNHQ - you really do need an edit button.

I see I wrote "he" I'm my last post entirely unconsciously. I meant to say "they", honest!

Apols, there was a lack of clarity(!) in my Ian Huntley clarification - we are unlikely to delete male pronouns in this instance. We have left flexibility for situations like this by saying that a given expression is likely, rather than certain, to be deleted.

Ian Huntley is a man, no matter what he does and says now - from the comfort of his high security prison cell. A man murdered Holly and Jessica. How can it not be ok to say this?

This is horrific gaslighting.

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but it’s likely that going forward our moderation team will delete these expressions.

I find the term cis hurtful, deliberately meant to be so, and I would struggle to engage further in a conversation where this was used. I agree with she/he when necessary, but where there is doubt, that clarity becomes obscure and therefore the proper approach is they/them.