Mumsnet moderation of trans rights and gender critical issues

[JustineMumsnet]

Hi all,
We've given lots of thought to our moderation policies around trans rights and sex and gender issues and thought it would be a good idea to articulate where we stand in the form of a clear statement, so everyone can be clear about our moderation going forward. You can find it here. Hope it provides a helpful reference point. Thanks.

And when all the women who believe in biology are banished...Ian Huntley will still be a murdering rapist man.

You have showed your hand already today Daim, by attempting to have me banned.

There was no 'good sport' there on your part, was there now? Nice try though.

I see you are now attempting to provoke me. Have you found that this tactic has been successful for you in the past?

Holy crap. After that clarification it is far worse than I thought. 'Trans identified' is 'goady'? 'TIM' will 'normally be deleted'.

I am gobsmacked.

I am Spartacus.

I’d also close down the twitter reporting full stop. If people want to report they need to be in here reading threads, not whipped into a frenzy on twitter and mass reporting.

That is what it means to force us to call men "women". It means compelling us to shatter our understanding of who we are as female human beings, and demanding that we sever our connections to each other that we understand on the basis that we share being female.

There are people on this thread harassing us to do this. Apparently they think harassing women is respectful behavior.

We're likely to delete this term however it's used. 'Trans-identified' seems pretty goady - people generally don't identify as trans but as the opposite sex. As someone said up thread, one person can't really tell another how they identify, even if they disagree with the logic.

@katemumsnet

Please supply a Mumsnet-approved term for [we all know what I mean] that does not include the word woman. Give me one or more terms for [we all know what I mean] that does not contradict my reality-based belief system that human beings cannot change sex - and I will use them.

You can't say "Oh, we support free speech" and "Oh, but you're not allowed to use any of the words to express that free speech" at the same time. If there are no permitted words for me to say what I mean, how can I say it?

Gender reassigned male.

Male who adopts a female gender

I can't believe there's even a question of it not being ok to call Ian Huntley a man on parenting website FFS.

This is how far this madness has taken us already.

It's all very well being polite on a forum, especially one that relies on advertising, however it doesn't then express the wider views of society.

To me, it seems, that most people will be polite but will never accept in stark reality, the actual biological facts.

I'm confused about what language is and isn't acceptable.

Assigned I didn't try and get you banned actually, I helped you out by pointing out a lot of the posts you wrote broke the new rules. Taking my advice means you won't get banned in the future. I even suggested you should win the thread as I was impressed with your audacity!

You're welcome.

Apols, there was a lack of clarity(!) in my Ian Huntley clarification - we are unlikely to delete male pronouns in this instance. We have left flexibility for situations like this by saying that a given expression is likely, rather than certain, to be deleted.

You can't have sauce for the goose and not the gander, Kate. That's the entire point about self-ID. That is the gender critical argument. Either people get to dictate their identities and pronouns or they don't. This is ludicrous.

Opps, that should read, because it makes no sense.

To me, it seems, that most people will be polite but will never accept in stark reality, the falseness against the actual biological facts.

I'm so tired.

Truthful things you now can't call males who forbid it:
male
man
men
man (trans identified)
TIM

Things you can't call females
Any word relating exclusively to their biology that can't be nicked by aforementioned men, prefixed for males and then 'identified as'.

We're sanctioning some people being allowed to forbid the factual truth being spoken about them. And the same people are forbidding us speaking factual truth about ourselves. Basically, one group is outlawing truth for everyone.

It's like being sat upon by your big brother until you are forced to incant "You're the king of the castle, I'm the dirty rascal"

Like I said, this pushes on until either men successfully achieve their aim of censoring all mention of the female biological class, or women convince everyone that it was a logical fallacy to validate males in any kind of female 'identity' in the first place.

We won't stop existing, and we won't stop being the opposite sex from all men, and people won't stop knowing this to be the absolute truth.

We'll just have made it compulsory to lie about it all.

Of course we can and should challenge people's identity.
Of course we should.
People are now claiming identities they could not feasibly possess, and treating their claims like a sacred cow.
We've moved from "I belong to this group because I share these characteristics therefore I identify as.." to "I share no characteristics with this group and I stake my claim anyway because I identify..."

Identity is at worst, a lie, and at best, surplus to requirements.
Let facts prevail.

@JoanSummers this absolutely
@LangCleg this absolutely

But the fact that my language is being policed and my civility is being abused and used against me now means that I am no longer willing to extend this courtesy.

Perhaps in all other threads you are perfectly courteous, respectful and civil- I wouldn't know, I've never noticed you before today. On this thread, however, you have been anything but. Earlier on you called me boring and told me to go away- how on earth is that civil or courteous? Your comments to and about Gibberty have not been civil or courteous.

When commenting on a thread discussing very clear guidelines in a way that repeatedly breaks those guidelines, you have to expect other people in the thread to comment on it- crying "people are policing me!" when they do so is very strange indeed.

Anyway. I'm sure your reaction to this post will be very civil and courteous- and, of course, not at all boring.

Can we say TIM to each other in conversation but not to a male who is transgender?
We're likely to delete this term however it's used. 'Trans-identified' seems pretty goady - people generally don't identify as trans but as the opposite sex. As someone said up thread, one person can't really tell another how they identify, even if they disagree with the logic

I'm not sure this is true. What about SOME PEOPLE ARE TRANS GET OVER IT, for example? I think quite a lot of people identify as trans, very much so - I would guess that Lily Madigan would say Lily Madigan was trans, even though Lily Madigan would also say that Lily Madigan is 100% woman.

I would also like @MNHQ to take into account that I feel my blood pressure go up, get chest pains, feel slightly light-headed and sudden waves of depression everytime a male uses female pronouns, refers to themselves as female, girl or woman even with the prefix 'trans' or if anyone else refers to them that way. It is offensive to me, my biology, my motherhood, my life experience, everything I am. I feel under siege and it is extremely disturbing.

@katemumsnet can you reassure me that you will ban people for using female pronouns or discriptors for males, in order to ensure respectful, non-goady discussion to include women like me?

Thanks.

Lang - exactly.

Either all of them are transwomen and female pronouns can legitimately be used of them, or none of them are. It cannot be the case that womanhood and female pronouns are awarded to the 'nice' ones and not to the 'nasty'ones.
After all, women are all women, are all 'she' no matter how 'nice' or 'nasty' they are.

Permission - exactly.