New sub-section please?

[RatRolyPoly]

Hello MNHQ, may I gently put forward the idea of a new Libfem sub-section please? I don't know if the idea has been floated before so I'm not sure what appetite there would be for it, if any at all, but in the interests of feminism being accessible to all women and for the benefit of all women I'd like to raise my hand in favour.

By "all women" I primarily mean women such as myself, who would appreciate a section on Mumsnet to discuss feminist and women's issues without what is serving to all intents and purposes as "entry criteria" on the existing board; that being the obligation to deny the legally recognised genders of a group of individuals - contrary to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

This situation, I believe, has become the case due to prevalence of a certain brand of feminism having become overrepresented on this board, but serves the purpose of excluding and silencing the valid views of many women and feminists.

I'm not attempting in any way to discredit or silence the position of this current majority, merely to suggest that a specific board is needed to enable the voices of liberal feminists to be heard; not least by each other, in order to discuss the ongoing struggles faced by women in today's society.

Cheers.

I agree with the OP. I'm not confident in my agreements or debating. But what about a subsection titled 'trans support' or something along those lines under feminism? I guess that would be somewhere where people could ask for help or support (like everywhere else on the site in the specific subsections) and are more likely to get a helpful response rather than being derailed by people wanting to debate their very existence and thus missing the point. Some of the vitriol is just so nasty to read.

"ice a cake" = "go to Tesco" = "interact with my children"

Sometimes fair enough, sometimes "fuck it I'm losing this argument, I'll let it sit for a bit and hope some people go away".

noloudnoises- I think that the OP has specifically said that she isn’t talking about trans issues? Or have I missed something?

Noloudnoises, no-one is trying to debate trans people's existence [sigh]. And if you see vitriol report it, MNHQ will delete it.

Of course trans people exist. And they (obviously) have exactly the same rights as you or me or anyone else. No-one ever says otherwise, which you would know if you read a few threads.

It just reeks of safe space and no-platforming to me.

This.

And to repeat, any requests for 'trans support' subsections or any other provision surely should come from the regularly posting 'out' trans MNetters themselves, based on what they actually feel they want and need, otherwise it seems a bit patronising. The members I read the posts of regularly seem extremely capable of advocating for themselves, and rather than alarmed and distressed by 'hate' - and gender critical views are not hate, words have fixed meanings and do matter - on the feminist chat boards every one of the trans MNetters I have met are in fact a number of the leading and most well informed and articulate gender critical posters.

Or are we back into the realms of 'the wrong kind of trans person' and the 'right kind of trans person'?

try going on a thread in Chat and suggesting that girls don’t have a “I like pink” chromosome or that a man is not a good father if he does not model a good relationship with his children’s mother or that choices are not made in a vacuum (all radical feminist positions) and see what “being shouted down” feels like!

Or going on AIBU and announcing you're Christian, are an out and proud Tory voter, or that you have doubts about immigration.

I think the difficulty with pro-choice is that it's often a religious belief. So women who follow a particular religion get stuck in that dichotomy. I see it in Ireland a lot - the argument, particularly from older women, along the lines of "half the foetuses are female, therefore as a feminist I am supporting the unborn female potential child".

Yes, this is what I had in mind when I said I could possibly be dissuaded from that view. Abortion rights is a bit moe complicated than the others.

And to repeat, any requests for 'trans support' subsections or any other provision surely should come from the regularly posting 'out' trans MNetters themselves, based on what they actually feel they want and need, otherwise it seems a bit patronising.

Yeah I know of a few trans posters, and parents of possible 'transkids' and they seem to be perfectly fine on the FWR boards. Many of them regularly point out that the only 'hate' in this whole thing is coming from transactivists and their supporters. Actual trans posters know that noone has a problem with actual trans people individually..its just the ideology in itself, and how so many of the most vocal ones push it (and that these vocal violent people are the ones being listened to with law changes and school guidance ad such), thats the problem.

I mean, the recent 'trans support thread' really was funny to see. Ignoring actual trans posters in favour of virtue signalling. It wuld be hilarious if it was not so pathetic.

An example of a parent of a 'transkid' (for a long period of time) and how the behaviour of TRAs has damaged them. And also noting how supportive the fmeinist board were throughout

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3159058-Disgusted-by-all-the-transphobia-here?msgid=75408188

I'm sure I'm being very stupid, but OP, did you ever give an example of a thread you would like to start on this proposed board (as opposed to an analogy) ?

Well I'm out of this thread. This is, as I thought, about trans issues and the op is very much an at-the-expense-of-women-who-don't-matter-trans-supporter.

I've just seen them on another thread quoting stats from Debbie6666, who by the way doesn't believe in AGP and who has an interesting posting history and is very like another Debbie with numbers whose posts are now all gone.

ffs, taken in again, what a waste of fucking time.

It just reeks of safe space and no-platforming to me.
I disagree. No one is suggesting that any current FWR forums be closed or even change. What is being proposed is a new sub-section for women who feel no platformed on FWR at the minute.

This is the Internet, there are no Safe Spaces. There is nothing to stop anyone coming on the thread and respectfully disagreeing. I also disagree that what is being requested is an echo chamber. Liberal feminism is incredibly broad.

I dont know why you just cant frame your threads in such a way it encourages debate?

I'll say it again...

... the FWR board isn't a radfem board. Most of the contributors there are not posting from a radfem perspective. So why is there a need to have a libfem board to counter a non-existent radfem board?

There isn't.

It's a cipher for the trans issue and we all know it even if we are pretending to not know it.

If you want a feminist sub-board where trans issues are verboten because you think that will attract more MNers to contribute, JUST SAY SO. At least it's honest.

I don't think it's existence would counter anything. It would just be a place for MNetters to talk about their liberal feminism.

Dione, you might have a point had this been asked by another op with a different agenda.

But in this case it is exactly a cipher for the trans issue. The op has made it perfectly clear that they are going to say "I support women" but then slip in disingenuous arguments demonstrating the exact opposite.

This has all got very heated.

I'm not sure that a LibFem sub-section is a way to go as the whole of the Feminism section should be (and is) open to all feminists.

What I'm wondering though is whether there could be room for an additional board somewhere which does give a little more room fdor gentler discussion, without quite so much of the "you can't be a feminist if" accusations and a perhaps slightly more laidback approach?

I hope I'm not going to get flamed for this, but I say this as someone who would like to think that they ARE a feminist but fear that I am not aware of or well-informed on all of the issues which connect with this. I find the general feminism boards rather too daunting and have been reluctant to join in for fear of being slaughtered as 'not feminist enough' I would appreciate a sort of "Intro to Feminism" or a Feminism 101 sub-section on which I could ask questions and learn more to try to establish exactly how I feel and where I do in fact stand on some of the issues facing women, women's rights and feminism in the current time.

An area like this would not exclude anyone or any topics, but it would be known that threads on there may not be as intense or include quite as highly-developed and maintained opinions and stances. It would be a place where people like me could perhaps ask questions, and listen to and learn from those who like Bertrand, Maryz and the OP have clearly already dedicated a lot of time and energy into learning and forming clear opinions and know precisely where they sit in the 'feminist spectrum'

Does that make any sense at all? apologies

We actually did have 'feminism 101' type threads in 2010 or 2011. There was a core of posters who would provide info and company, before trollgate.

I do wish women would post in the section and preferably start threads as it's like anywhere on MN - ignore the flamers and get out of it what you put in. And report any goady posts.

If you start a thread I'll post on it and be super-nice.

But anyone who's been on here for a while is more informed than most folk, I think.

“I find the general feminism boards rather too daunting and have been reluctant to join in for fear of being slaughtered as 'not feminist enough”

I can absolutely promise that will not happpen. Promise.

I think it's also worth noting that the FWR board, aside from attracting a range of contributors, from not-particularly-feminist-at-all through libfem to radfem, is not "anti-trans". There are trans regulars there and also parents of trans-identifying children.

What it is, is anti self-ID and, probably, anti Gender Identity Theory.

It is very accepting of dysphoric people and dysphoric contributors.

soupforbrains why not pluck up your courage and go and ask a few questions? In my experience, anyone asking for information on FWR about any feminist issues gets a warm welcome. It's just the goady ploppers who get short shrift.

Hi soup, really pleased you posted, thanks for your thoughts!

I think what I'm hoping to achieve a bit of what you're looking for, and whilst I agree the main board is for everyone, I think a more open environment is needed. Why I think it should be a Libfem board is in your post actually;

without quite so much of the "you can't be a feminist if" accusations and a perhaps slightly more laidback approach

Anyone who isn't a fan of saying "you can't be a feminist if" or who, even if they think it doesn't really bang on about, because, you know, liberalism; that's a liberal feminist to me. And hopefully and space created would have that vibe :)

I'm not wedded to the name though, we could call it anything you like! Practical feminism? Inclusive feminism? I don't know, they're all synonyms for liberal to me, but if one is more accessible in general I'mm well up for that!

@SuperLoudPoppingAction @BertrandRussell @LangCleg

Thank you all. I see I should just put some big girl pants on and plough in. I think that the idea of a section dedicated particularly appealed as I like the idea of learning alongside others IYSWIM. Other people often question or remark on aspects/issues which have not occurred to me. So a nice little area which gather all this sort of thread together seemed like an attractive idea.

Annoyingly while I am now feeling brave (and supported) enough to go post, I can't think of anything i want to ask...

Rat, why not just start a thread? It’s the only way you’ll find out how it will go.

Soup, most of us were where you are once - we don't bite :)