New sub-section please?

[RatRolyPoly]

Hello MNHQ, may I gently put forward the idea of a new Libfem sub-section please? I don't know if the idea has been floated before so I'm not sure what appetite there would be for it, if any at all, but in the interests of feminism being accessible to all women and for the benefit of all women I'd like to raise my hand in favour.

By "all women" I primarily mean women such as myself, who would appreciate a section on Mumsnet to discuss feminist and women's issues without what is serving to all intents and purposes as "entry criteria" on the existing board; that being the obligation to deny the legally recognised genders of a group of individuals - contrary to the Gender Recognition Act 2004.

This situation, I believe, has become the case due to prevalence of a certain brand of feminism having become overrepresented on this board, but serves the purpose of excluding and silencing the valid views of many women and feminists.

I'm not attempting in any way to discredit or silence the position of this current majority, merely to suggest that a specific board is needed to enable the voices of liberal feminists to be heard; not least by each other, in order to discuss the ongoing struggles faced by women in today's society.

Cheers.

Yes I know, I was just thinking about the concept of 'Liberal Feminism'.

'But that is the problem with self id isn't it? You cannot be in favour of both self id
and women's rights. They are not compatible are they? Or if they are I would love to know how.'
For me, the way it works is when I say 'women' I mean 'adult human females' and when other folk say 'women' they often mean 'adult human females but also I will be polite and pretend it also means men with ladyfeels' and for a very few folk it means 'anyone who identifies as a woman'

But we all can still fight against abortion or for equal pay or for childcare or against male sex offenders (as long as we all agree they're male, or can come to some agreement about how to proceed) so there's still a lot of common ground.

'Self-identifying women' or 'femmes' would exclude me, so I avoid groups with those terms.

If you are for women and women's rights you are a feminist.

Conversely:

*If you If you are not for women and women's rights you are not a feminist."

If you support the erosion of women's rights to increase rights for a small number of men, how can you say you are supporting women's rights?

and for a very few folk it means 'anyone who identifies as a woman'

It's not 'very few folk'. The if the GRA proposals go through 'anyone who identifies as a woman' will be the legal definition of woman won't it? And once that happens, campaigning against 'male' violence, equal pay etc will get a hell of a lot harder.

Anyway, really don't want to derail so am going to leave that now, sorry!

I think a liberal feminist sub section would be great. It's sad that it should have to be requested online a site with an already existing feminist section, but anything that makes it easier for women to engage with feminism is a good thing.

Thanks OP.

I want to trial something..but I have no idea what to ask as I don't know whats clased as liberal feminism and whats not.

I am thinking, put [Libfems] in the title or something. And see what happens. But it has to be something thats apparently liberal feminism. Any ideas?

I'll catch you on another thread Thehairthebod

Seriously, though, which of my statements do you not agree with. And which of the things I've listed do you not believe? It would be nice to get specific answers from you on something - you are doing a heck of a lot of fence sitting across multiple threads

If you support self-id you are supporting men winning at women's sport, men entering women's spaces, women being forced to accept intimate care from men and the erosion of all women's spaces.

You say you don't want to make this about trans issues, but it's obvious from your posts that where women's rights and trans demands meet you are on the side of trans.

I agree with Maryz and Bertrand's examples.

They are all examples of not being pro-woman, so no shit Sherlock they are examples of "you can't be feminist if"

Oh and I don't think echo chambers are a good idea. Did no one learn anything from Brexit?!

Thanks Dione!

Echo chambers - already covered those upthread, but happy to revisit if new queries come to light?

Righto, gotta shop Tesco's before we're all left living off a bottle of champagne for a week. BRB.

That's not to say that proper libfems are not feminist. As they are still pro woman. And as such, perfectly welcome in FWR.

See you there Rat

Which of Maryz's points do you disagree with?

BeyondWitchbitchterf, Liberal Feminists are not welcome on the FWR boards, in fact the term Lib Feminist is an insult there.

She always goes fucking shopping/back to real life when the discussion gets to the "shit or get off the pot stage". ffs, it's like arguing with a marshmallow [cynical]

Bertrand, maybe we need a "you can't be a feminist if ..." thread - I'm coming up with a heck of a lot of examples at the moment [sigh]

It's not a matter of "if you want to be a feminist you have to follow my rules", it's more "if you want to be a feminist you have to at least believe that women are human beings, and have a right to respect, choices and support". Pretty basic, really.

It just reeks of safe space and no-platforming to me. If you have the courage in your libfem convictions, you can debate with the radfems and still come out with your views unchanged. If you can't, maybe you're just having your eyes opened to a new possibility?

I don't agree with "safe spaces" (aka anyone with opposing views isn't allowed to talk to me) in university and I definitely don't agree with it on a feminism discussion board. Part of feminism has always been making your voice heard and making people listen, but there's also an element of listening and learning yourself. I was a libfem through and through until reading the feminism board here; now I sit on the fence as an intersectional feminist who becomes radical when discussing trans issues and their impact on women's rights.

There are no entry requirements for the board. There's no "hate trans people or you can't sit with us". Sometimes I'll join in threads; sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don't - and sometimes I'll sit one out. Argue and debate and discuss and start your own threads, try to educate people to your point of view and allow them to educate you about yours. That's what feminism is supposed to be; not a series of clubs that close their doors to anyone with slightly different views on a singular topic.

Note how EU referendum is one area.
There are not separate areas for pro/against and never the 'twain shall meet.

Plus there is no radical/separatist/green/socialist/intersectional/whatever subsection. Why do you think the type which already seems to be very popular on mn (see six million "I'm a feminist, I believe in choice, but scared of fwr" posts) should need its own area? If it's so common, yet with so many avoiding FWR, why are people not trying to get their POV across in the existing chat area?

And I wouldn't think of myself as a radical feminist at all. Or a liberal feminist for that matter.

Over the years I've had my arse handed to me on a plate on these boards; sometimes undeserved (in my opinion), sometimes very much deserved. I've changed my mind on some things, not on others, but at least I've listened and thought about it and come up with my own principles.

There are few issues I fence-sit on these days. But maybe that's just because I'm old and cynical. But MN feminists have taught me a lot.

The main thing I've learned it to look at it from a woman's point of view - not necessarily mine, but the most vulnerable woman I can think of. If an attitude/law/practice/opinion isn't ok for that woman, then I should speak up against it.

Possibly because when they do argue their point they are subjected to ad hominem attacks, insults and "spontaneous" chat about baking.

Somehow I feel as if I have been patted on the head!?

You can’t be a feminist if you think women shouldn’t be treated equally with men

You can't be a feminist if you support self-ID (note, not transsexual people, self identified, meaning any male simply saying he is a woman)

I would go for that. No feminist would actually support all the rights women have fought for being taken by men, surely? It about as anti-feminist as you can get.

You can't be a feminist if you are not pro-choice is a possible. But I could be persuaded otherwise on that I think..possibly. I just do not see how anyone can say they are a feminist while saying women have no bodily autonomy

I literally can think of no more though. Equal rights as a goal, keeping current fought for rights and bodily autonomy...3 definite musts in feminsm, for me anyway.

I mean, you could still call yourself a feminist in any of those cases I guess. But I cannot quite make sense such obvious anti-feminst beliefs being held by feminists.

The examples given are usually ridiculous though, not actually serious. The likes of 'you can't be a feminist if you shave your legs' 'you cant be a feminist if you wear makeup' and such. Which I have never ever seen anyone say. Except for the people claiming it was said

From what I have seen, the baking thing might be about goady posters.

I know the ice a cake thing is, as a bunch of posters (who were apparently different people) would end their goadiness with 'off to ice a cake' and such. So it ws kind of picked up from there.

I assume the baking cake thing is similar? Never heard baking on feminism boards.

I think the difficulty with pro-choice is that it's often a religious belief. So women who follow a particular religion get stuck in that dichotomy. I see it in Ireland a lot - the argument, particularly from older women, along the lines of "half the foetuses are female, therefore as a feminist I am supporting the unborn female potential child".

That's a discussion for another thread, though (one which I will avoid).

Radical feminists spend half their time on the feminist boards ( and everywhere else on Mumsnet) carefully explaining and justifying their point of view. Is there any reason why liberal feminists can’t do the same?

I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve been mocked and derided- try going on a thread in Chat and suggesting that girls don’t have a “I like pink” chromosome or that a man is not a good father if he does not model a good relationship with his children’s mother or that choices are not made in a vacuum (all radical feminist positions) and see what “being shouted down” feels like! . Or even going on a baby name thread and suggesting that it’s problematic that we give girls traditional boy’s names but not the other way round. But I don’t think that means I should have a “safe space”.