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I am still Spartacus

186 replies

OscarDeLaYenta · 01/09/2016 19:14

Seems timely. Sadly still required.

I am Oscar, and I remain Spartacus. Really cannot be arsed to C&P or restate my position.... I shouldn't need to have to state the need for language to reflect reality in the first place.....

(Belated shout-out to seek for brilliantly using the Spartacus analogy in the first place!)

OP posts:
makeslogicalsensetome2 · 02/09/2016 14:27

HemlockIsSpartacus
I replied to the other thread along similar lines.. There are some who do not want bottom surgery. It doesn't alway produce desired results. My ex thought having top surgery was imperative. Passing as female is consistent with and alleviates gender dysphoria to a degree. Youtube is full of videos talking about being MTT Lesbians expecting women to continue to sleep with them. I was told it validates their womanhood. Its the holy grail. Google female penis.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2720620-Thoughts-on-MNHQs-response-to-the-Spartacus-thread?watched=1&msgid=63341569#63341569

( Re MTT are not men is dresses. 'MTT are not "men in dresses" for goodness sake. Stop being hysterical!)

'Experience taught me that some definitely are which is where the umbrella LGBTI is deceiving. These terms are all separate but have been appropriated under the same banner. Equality for all is the favoured outcome I agree.
That means women and children should have a voice. Also read up on how synthetic hormones and blockers affect the system and minds of children, with physical outcomes such as blood clots a reality.

Due to the nature of how MTT surgery is performed it sometimes results in fistulas, the constant need to be vigilant for infections and its not an exact science. Detransitioning can be a nightmare too. '
Whats going to happen to the young Jazz's of the world when they are faced with the next step. Our children are guinea pigs.They admit their baseline is too general and they cannot give 100 % reliable outcomes for children who are given synthetic hormones and blockers. They also admit cross sex hormones change the way the brain works so the 70-80% of kids who normally outgrow their transgender feelings may not do so after using hormones.

Its better to allow children the freedom to express themselves with no societal repercussions that to medically intervene until more studies have been done.
Thats why children are not allowed to drive, vote etc. They are not fully mature.

AliveAlone · 02/09/2016 14:43

Thank you derxa
And thank you oscar for starting these threads.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 02/09/2016 14:45

Still Spartacus. And apparently (thanks to the Sage test!!) I am now ftt - so now you have to listen to my viewpoint or you are being transphobic and LITERALLY KILLING ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Kropotkinator · 02/09/2016 15:12

Delurked a few days ago.

I used to support TAs. I'm a lefty of course, I believe you should let people live and let live, that people should have equal rights, and that oppressed people need to be liberated and helped by showing solidarity. I used to say "gender is preformative" without knowing what it meant because I wanted to show solidarity.

Then one day I was told I'm not a real woman by a MtT because I never felt like a woman and he always had. I was a tomboy and he had always liked pink dresses. I didn't know what "feeling like a woman" was supposed to be, so he told me I was A-gender and that he was more of a woman than I was.

I doubted my material reality for a year. Maybe I was A-gender? Maybe I was a man trapped in a woman's body? I always enjoyed typically boyish activities as a child and hated being a girl, after all. Who wants to wear uncomfortable tights and be forced to play with dollies? It properly fucked me up until I realised:

"No, this is gas-lighting"

I am a woman because I am a human adult female. I do not "identify" as such. Society treats me as a second class citizen because of my biology.

Gender is not "innate". It is not "preformative". It is "prescribed" by patriarchal notions of masculinity and femininity and is an oppressive tool to put us all, but especially women, into boxes into which we will never fit. They are ill fitting clothes. They erase diversity and personality into bland hegemony.

People should be free to push the boundaries and, ultimately, try to break down the bars of the jail called "gender" in which we have sent to. I support trans people in doing so. But we are all born male or female, and I see nothing progressive or liberating coming out in denying that.

A man is a human adult male.
A woman is a human adult female.
There is no such thing as a lesbian with a penis.

I am Spartacus.

Kropotkinator · 02/09/2016 15:20

And additionally, the more I thought about it, the more I could see a parallel between the working class struggle being usurped by hyper-individualist liberalism, and women's struggle being usurped by hyper-individualist liberalism.

If the trans lobby continues in the way it does, women will go the same way the working class have (divided and voiceless, with little to no resources,) in the recent past - but that's another (political) thread entirely.

ftw · 02/09/2016 15:26

I don't feel like a woman, I just feel like me. I have no idea what 'feeling like a woman' feels like.

I am a woman because chromosomes. I could not change this if I tried.

I am not transphobic.

I am still Spartacus, and I will not stand by whilst women are silenced.

dorade · 02/09/2016 16:08

I am still Spartacus.

I think MNHQ has an unparalleled opportunity to facilitate and even champion a desperately-needed public debate and discussion about this issue, which is leading to healthy children being set on a path to sterilisation and bodily mutilation.

There is no such popular debate at the moment. The current discourse on TV and in the popular press is about "brave" kids or middle aged men "changing gender". Someone needs to propel the other side of the argument into the mainstream before Maria Miller gets her way with legislation which will remove women safe spaces and more.

I believe that the coup by autogynephiles was succeeding in adding the "T" to LGB. No right-thinking person is against LGB rights and now it is LGBT then people go along with the T part automatically.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2016 16:13

powerful post, Krop. MN needs to be open for business for people like you who who need plain truth not gaslighting.

ErrolTheDragon · 02/09/2016 16:29

I was googling just now to try to find out when the 'T' was added, and whether it always stood for 'transgender' (I had assumed till recently it was 'transsexual' till recently, as that's been a real thing for decades) - but most of the hits returned are about taking the T out of LGBT, some of them from the T side. There's a change.org petition which is clear on why from their POV, but it's framed as coming from a group of LGB people so not sure if ok for heteros to sign up to it? (can't remember if it's ok to link to petitions, easy to find 'drop the T' )

OlennasWimple · 02/09/2016 16:29

Applauds Krop

GarlicMist · 02/09/2016 16:53

Blimey, Beyond. I googled for that Sage GID test and spent an irritable hour doing it. The options were so insanely biased, there wasn't a decent answer for many questions. Gender stereotypes and autogynephilia infected at least half the questions.
Surprise surprise:
Your Raw Score is: -395, which indicates that overall you are Androgynous
Your appearance is Androgynous
Your brain processes are mostly that of a Androgynous person.
You appear to socialize in a androgynous manner.
You believe you have mild conflicts about your gender identity.
You indicated your were born Female.
ANALYSIS:
Female to Male possible Transsexual

Actually I'm a middle-of-the road woman. But, hey, can I get some Androgyny injections? Hmm

GarlicMist · 02/09/2016 16:56

Krop, your point about parallel class/individual struggles is huge!

It could stand a great deal more exploration.

Kropotkinator · 02/09/2016 17:35

GarlicMist

Also not the "there are 14 different classes" of Blairism, with there are "40 different genders" of 3rd wave (way? lol) feminism. One can argue that while Blair seemingly gave his generation and class an escape from the chains of traditional class (he tried so hard to mimic the lower-middle class at every turn- and perhaps identified with them and their aspiration), it was ultimately the next generation that was hurt by the policies.

I see the same thing happening here with gender, where one fairly well off generation and indeed class (white, predominantly middle class intellectuals) are setting up the next generation of women for massive falls both economically and rights-wise.

I have lots of theories about political postmodernism too, but that's really hair raising and far too complicated for a Friday evening. Confused

SianSteans · 03/09/2016 00:23

Still Spartacus. This blog post from a couple of years ago really hit home for me and I think articulates this whole farce so well.
feministsunknown.wordpress.com/2014/08/17/i-am-uberpoor/

"I’ve always known I was working class, even before I had the words to articulate it. Aged three, I used to call my dinner “tea”. My father, a high court judge, hated it but I kept on doing it all the same. I’ve no idea how I just knew the word “tea” was working class for “dinner”. I guess it’s something that was just in me.

Back in the 1980s no one ever discussed working-class children who’d been falsely assigned middle-class status at birth. It was as though we didn’t exist. Because of this I’d retreat into a fantasy world where I’d been swapped at birth and Den and Angie off Eastenders were my real mum and dad. I couldn’t talk to my parents about this. My mother, a bus conductor’s daughter and the youngest of six children, was always telling me how lucky I was with my holidays abroad and ballet lessons. I don’t think she meant to hurt me; it was just her identified-poor-at-birth privilege that made her such an evil bitch. The children on the estate were even worse. They’d call me posh and make fun of my double-barrelled name. They wouldn’t let me play with them on the swings or smoke fags underneath the slide. I grew used to being excluded because of my class but it hurt.

There’s a word for people like me: überpoor (don’t worry if you’ve never heard of it; your ignorance just means you’re a privileged bigot). Basically, it describes the state of being poor while enduring the added oppression that comes with having money and a middle-class background. The queer poverty theorist J’amie Olivier came up with it in his brilliant work Whipping Chav. If you’ve not read it, please do. It explains so much about how poor people are not oppressed due to having no money but due to “poorphobia”: a widespread antipathy towards dog racing, Lambrini and the Waitrose Essentials range. Hardest hit by this are the überpoor: people who have been wrongly assigned middle- or upper-class status but are in fact poor. For centuries, such people have simply been invisible. No one has wanted to talk about us and our needs.

Thankfully, the release of Park Life in the mid-1990s came as something of a tipping point for überpoor people. Damon Albarn’s affected mockney accent finally proved to the world that yes, we did exist. To paraphrase Paris Lees on Conchita Wurst, Damon wasn’t middle-class or a millionaire pop star or any of these restrictive categories: he was just Damon, showing what it means to break through all the barriers! Obviously there was some opposition to such an image of liberation. Vile bigots such as Jarvis Cocker started releasing überpoorphobic anthems such as Common People, erasing our lived experience by claiming we merely thought “that poor is cool”. I always felt the NUS should have no-platformed Pulp due to that line about how we would “never understand how it means to live [our lives] with no meaning or control”. I never forgave them for letting the band play at the £400-a-head Cambridge May Ball I attended in 1996. The Bollinger leaves a bitter taste when there’s some northern-accent-privileged tosser up on a stage behind you suggesting that you don’t even know your own class identity. Seriously, just listen to Different Class (content warning: überpoorphobia); it’s as though people like Cocker want poor people to be oppressed.

I’ve since worked hard to live my life as an überpoor person in a society in which our needs are often overlooked. One of the worst things is being continually mis-classed. For instance, last week my cleaner accidentally called me “madam” rather than “you slaaaag!”. I felt so erased I had to sack her there and then, single mother or not.

The credit crunch and age of austerity have triggered something of a backlash. I’ve tried signing on but each time I am asked to provide documentation to prove that I don’t in fact have a £50,000 trust fund. When I’ve argued this is irrelevant – I’m a fucking human being, not numbers on a bank statement – the ignorant staff at the Job Centre have suggested I am not “really” poor. What is most upsetting is that they then allow other assigned-middle-class-at-birth people to sign on simply because such people don’t have money any more. Like, how do they even know these people are genuinely überpoor and not just rich people who’ve got rid of all their cash because they’re essentialist bigots who believe that’s the only way to be poor? I call these people überpoorscum. To be honest, I don’t think they should be welcome in überpoor communities. It just creates an extra pressure on the rest of us not to be incredibly wealthy.

My hope is that eventually, more and more assigned-poor-at-birth people are able to recognise how privileged they are, welcome us into their communities and hand over all their lager and pool tables. So many APAB prople think it’s enough just not to mind if I rent a flat above a shop, cut my hair and get a job, but this implies being überpoor isn’t in fact more valid and painful than simply being poor. It’s essential that these poor people put us first given that we bear the double burden of not just being überpoor but of having lots of money while being überpoor and hence being mis-classed (it never ceases to amaze me, by contrast, how welcoming the rich are to the überrich, allowing them to adopt plumy accents while continuing to do all the former’s domestic work). The activism is increasing, though. I’ve recently set up a change.org petition to try to get Cocker’s current Radio 6 show cancelled on the basis that mainstream media should not be giving a platform to überpoorphobes. The final thing I want to do is sleep with common people.

Common people like you."

AndNowItsSeven · 03/09/2016 00:28

As Helen Reddy said, I am woman.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=MUBnxqEVKlk

ExitPursuedBySpartacus · 03/09/2016 00:40

Signing in.

AlpacaLypse · 03/09/2016 00:53

I'm still AlpacaLypse. Biologically and emotionally female. Although of course only the biological bit is provable.

I don't know what it feels like to be male.

Although I did once have a very odd dream involving male + male gay sex and woke up feeling very turned on. However, I did not feel any overwhelming urge to get myself surgically transformed into some semblance of a male and then go chasing after either of the two objects of that particular rather frisky sexual fantasy. That would be rather silly and delusional and frankly a bit sad... oh wait?

You can't make anyone do what you want them to do by throwing your toys out of the pram.

Also trying to re-define yourself as 'Trans' because for some reason you're embarrassed by the term 'Cross Dresser' is silly.

If you have a functional penis and fancy women, it means that you are a heterosexual man who likes dressing up in women's clothing, not that you are a lesbian born in a man's body.

If you asked from a truthful position rather than squawked 'Cotton Ceiling' you might actually get somewhere. Us biologically female women quite value honesty in our relationships y'know.

AnnaForbes · 03/09/2016 01:32

Such brilliant posts on here. Rock on Spartaci.

I just looked up my first posts here. they are from 2001. In all those years I have posted about miscarriages, giving birth, breastfeeding, taking pills to conceive, taking pills to postpone a period before a holiday, taking pills to reduce heavy periods and, soon I expect I will be posting about menopause. I am a woman and want to share or seek advice with others who have the same body parts and issues arising from ownership of these body parts. My chromosomes dictate I'm a woman and its dangerous fantasy to pretend otherwise.

I'm SpartacusForbes.

PageStillNotFound404 · 03/09/2016 03:18

This from a PP sums it up for me:

"I don't feel like a woman, I just feel like me. I have no idea what 'feeling like a woman' feels like.

I am a woman because chromosomes. I could not change this if I tried.

I am not transphobic.

I am still Spartacus, and I will not stand by whilst women are silenced."

StatisticallyChallenged · 03/09/2016 05:25

A bit of a tangent, but it's late and I'm awake so...

Week or two ago I read a thread on here, woman in her mid twenties who wanted to be sterilised but had been refused by her doctors. These pop up fairly regularly in different guises - this particular woman already had children but sometimes it's women who don't. Her husband also asked about a vasectomy, was also refused. The refusal was on the basis that they were too young and couldn't be sure they wouldn't want more children - this seems to be a really common reason for refusing.

Yet...a man or woman could easily undergo far more radical procedures via transitioning, also leaving them sterile, at a far younger age. Why are women being refused the right to control their fertility whilst we're simultaneously allowing people to remove any hint of their reproductive organs because of transgenderism? How can we say a woman (or man) doesn't know their own mind well enough to be sure they don't want (more) children yet say others can "change sex"?

As far as I can tell this approach to sterilisation is very widespread.

BeyondASpecialSnowflake · 03/09/2016 07:58

Similar, though less serious, with breast augmentation/reduction. You are not trusted to say it is affecting your physical/mental health, unless you are transgender.

Kropotkinator · 03/09/2016 13:09

Mmm. I had the same issue. Went to the doctor at the age of 18 wanting to be sterilised becuase I didn't want to get pregnant and hated kids (the thought of pregnancy disgusts me and terrifies me still, due to my own issues with body, bullying etc.). Doctor said no as I might want to get pregnant later and I might change my mind (the idea of kids is nice now, but the pregnancy thing I can't get over - so still no kids). I was also a tomboy as I said above.

Had I been a teenager now I probably would have insisted I was trans too. The thought that there are little "me s" out there being coerced into transitioning quite frankly terrifies me.

StatisticallyChallenged · 03/09/2016 13:39

Glad it's not just me that sees the hypocrisy.

GarlicMist · 03/09/2016 14:57

Sian, that "überpoor" analogy's fantastic!

Although it's a thought experiment, it perfectly highlights the absurdity of denying your privilege in order to gain privileged rights among a less-privileged class. (Confused!)

Any minute now, I'll probably find out it's a real thing and I've committed yet another crime of mis-identifying someone as who they actually are.

Call me Spartacus.

GarlicMist · 03/09/2016 15:01

It's totally not a tangent, Stat, it's a core issue. Also see: Transwomen airily dismissing the kids they fathered as a man, in order to wail over the agonies of being a 'woman' who can't get pregnant.