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A different view to "I am Spartacus"

281 replies

aleanasjourney · 01/09/2016 02:01

Hello everyone,

I have had the time to read a lot of your comments about Transgender people not being biologically the gender they wish to be. It is a very sad day when parents are not able to share the hopes and dreams of other parents. It is a sad day when other parents cannot understand the pain and anguish of other parents when their child is in so much pain that they want to die.
Now I know what you are about to say, if they get help then they would not have a problem and they would be fixed. In the DSM 3,4, and 5 Gender Dysphoria is a real problem. It is not something made up to lead people to the Devil or anything else that crazy. By the way if you go to a Physiologist or a social worker they use the DSM as a guide book for issues of the mind. Though this year it is being discussed to remove the issues of Gender Dysphoria. Now if you try to discount the issues of Gender Dysphoria then the little happy pills some of you are taking must stop as well.
Let me try to give you a little light... I respect your views as it is your right to have them. But giving you the right to have your views then you must accept the right given to others to have the view that they are not what their body says they are.
When it comes to children who are feeling the way that they are, would you not do ANYTHING to keep your child alive? Hormone blockers do not cause boobs to grow. They do exactly what they say they are going to do. It puts off Puberty, it does not stop it. They are used to see if the child is going through a phase. Now to the issues of physical sex (penis and vagina) those of you saying that they are the only two genders need to understand that you have been proven incorrect by 99% of the medical community. There is a physical sex called Intersexed for those of you who don't know that is what used to be called a Hermaphrodite. Now this does not mean that they were born with born sets of equipment. What it means is simply that some of the traits of both sexes are included. Meaning that you could have a child born with a penis and a set of ovaries. Now saying it is a "normal" condition, in the past surgery was chosen for children born with this condition. The suicide rate was very high for this group cause a lot of the time the doctors got it wrong. So if you look at a seesaw penis on one side and vagina on the other intersexed sits in the middle. Their is a sliding scale in the three, this is being proven with the markers now are wider than the simple XX and XY. Though the majority are XX and XY. It is possible that some of the mental traits are linked in a different fashion than what was thought. If you accept that being Gay or Lesbian is not a mental illness then you have to look at the Transgender issue as not an illness as well but as a mental trait similar to being Gay or Lesbian.
Furthermore we must also look at what the Transcommunity are saying compared to what is being said by the media and the politicians. The Transcommunity does not say they are the other gender, they are saying that is how they feel they are. This is something that is hard to understand and digest. So let me try to help your thoughts. In the morning you wake up you don't see your body. You feel your environment around you. Go to the bathroom, eat breakfast, brush your teeth and then you are at the point where you have to get dressed you look at your clothes and you feel like wearing Red. Okay now lets look at a Transperson they wake up they feel their environment around them. Go to the bathroom, but don't look in the mirror, they eat breakfast, they brush their teeth, they try to avoid the mirror. They get dressed they go about their day hoping to make it one more day. Then it happens, it snaps they can't keep doing this. This is not life, this is existence nothing more. Something has to be done, not that they want it done. They would love to be the "Norm" but they can't it is more than a feeling of RED. It is something wrong deep in their soul. They do not feel connected to the skin they are in. So what do they do, some give up, some crawl into a hole, some end it all, some fight it until it kills them, some say I have to Transition. They worry about the cost of the choice but what is the other choices if they don't. They want to live just like the "Norm". So they feel closer to the XX or the XY. So they try to live like that to make it. Now to debunk some of the crazy ideas that the media and politicians pounding into your head that is incorrect.
*Men can Breast feed, the glands are there and all they have to do is be activated.
*Transpeople do not cause problems in the bathrooms. Here is why Hormone blockers for Transwomen shut off Testosterone . That is male hormone that cause the erections, sex drive and some thought patterns associated with some forms of perversions . IF that Hormone is not working then those are no longer issues. Because news flash without the hormone erections well 90% are gone. Sex Drive is changed to an emotional connection vs physical connection.
*When it comes to parenting most Transwomen become more in tune with their children.
*No they don't perverse their children in to any form of gender role in fact they hope that their children do not have the same issues.
*When it comes to pronouns what is wrong with a little respect? They are not punishing you for being the "Norm". Call you out for dressing like a slob, bogan, white trash, or any thing else. In fact Transpeople for the most part are more inclusive of your feelings cause what they go through.

You might wonder where my in site comes from. I live it.... My story would shock and scare some of you, if I was your child. I would welcome you to read it aleanasjourney.com/about/ . In fact if you questions ask me, don't assume cause I assure you the truth will help you understand me. I wish you the best day no matter who you are or who you want to be.
~Ally

OP posts:
BombadierFritz · 01/09/2016 10:08

which basic human rights exactly? I would think we all agree on here all humans should have certain basic rights. can you clarify here?

biscuitz72 · 01/09/2016 10:09

Wow, some very eloquent posts here. inertia, youare and FRET, I completely agree with your posts. You've all said it better than I ever could.

It's really frightening the way the world is going in this respect. At my DC school they now include this quite heavily in their sex education talks.

It wasn't done very well and they didn't modify their language (ie: if you are unhappy with your body and hate your boobs/periods you HAVE gender dysmorphia), so my DC, who has Aspergers, and is going through puberty and hated her periods and her body (she's gained weight and gets teased) suddenly decides that she must have this condition because "the teacher said so".
Forget all the other possible reasons for being unhappy with yourself and that most teens hate their boobs or periods at some point and that that's completely normal.

I realise that if she was NT she'd have probably figured that out for herself, but having aspergers, her outlook is very black and white and once an idea is in her head it's impossible to shift.

It took a year of talking to her about it before she realised that she didn't really have this condition (and in that time, from talking to ppl online who only encouraged her, she'd already wanted to start hormone treatment, etc). Luckily, I didn't allow this. Now she's glad that I put my foot down.

There are only 2 sexes: male and female and you cannot change sex. Gender is a social construct.

kistanbul · 01/09/2016 10:09

You seem to be basing your arguments on the idea that gender exists separately from socialisation.

The validity of that belief is a debate that's been going on in the scientific community for decades. As with other aspects of science, anthropology and sociology, someone's feelings don't trump evidence. There isint enough evidence to support your view.

I don't believe that my biology dictates my brain's gender. I believe that my sex determines how I am treated by the world at large and requires me to conform to social norms that we call gender.

Sex is real. Gender is a social construct.

Your thinking about gender little Victorian.

You need to consider for a moment that brain sex is taught. "Girl brain" is not a thing.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 01/09/2016 10:11

All Transpeople want is basic human rights as well.

As seen on all these threads people have repeatedly agreed with this. However much of the TRA movement is not about equality, it is about appropriation and emphatically not respectful of others, with those others always being women.

Phrases like ‘die cis scum’ and ‘terfs need to die in a fire’, refusal to let women discuss matters essential to their womanhood because it's exclusionary, demands to be centred in feminism at the cost of women (actively mentioning that 'cis' women 'owe us'), to re define language and concepts to the cost of women, to occupy women’s spaces even if this is distressing and not in the interests of the women involved, take the bitterly fought for women’s spaces in sport, in positions of power, and for this to be seen as a victory? That is absolutely not about equality or inclusive of women’s feelings, or even basically respectful of women. The attitude is far more ‘hand it over and get out of my way’.

FrancisCrawford · 01/09/2016 10:12

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BertrandRussell · 01/09/2016 10:13

AbbeyBartlett.

Talks to me about this total intolerance. Give me examples of it.

And for the love of God (who I don't believe in, actually) don't just talk about all the people who are being "vile". Show me.

rumblingDMexploitingbstds · 01/09/2016 10:17

it's the only issue where total intolerance is so prevalent.

Please, what intolerance? Because I honestly don't see this.

FrancisCrawford summed this up perfectly, so perfectly I'll c&p.

Nobody is saying transpeople should not and do not have rights.

I object to those rights coming at a price to women.

I object to you trying to impose a new definition of female on women because it denies what it means to be a woman.

Define yourself how you wish. Do not redefine who I am to suit your needs.

What is intolerant about that POV?

AbbeyBartlet · 01/09/2016 10:17

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

AbbeyBartlet · 01/09/2016 10:18

Okay having seen the post above, I'm out. As another poster once said, you can't argue with batshit.

Spartacus · 01/09/2016 10:19

When archaeologists dig up skeletons, they consider their femur length, shape of pelvis, skull, etc and then decide whether this is the skeleton of a male or a female.

That's biology. In future, if a skeleton is dug up with the remains of a dress on it, but the femur length, pelvis and skull shape is that of a male, guess what they'll say? Yep. Male.

Science, eh? What a bitch. Always proving stuff with facts.

IfTheCapFitsWearIt · 01/09/2016 10:20

All Transpeople want is basic human rights as well

Nobody is saying they shouldn't.

I think we would all get behind a campaign to get safe spaces and legal rights.

But not at the expense of womens rights.

Also it should not be pushed on children.

BombadierFritz · 01/09/2016 10:20

ah yes there flies an insult!

FRETGNIKCUF · 01/09/2016 10:22

Abbey.

Intolerance for the erosion of women's rights?

Damned straight I can see it.
*
Any other intolerance please be specific.*

MsStricty · 01/09/2016 10:22

Ally, I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I have spent enough time working with issues of gender and sex, and with friends who know it intimately (some having to navigate that 'between polarity' every day), to have felt a searing disappointment in the number of people who stood up on the Spartacus thread.

I also speak as a woman who has had to take a long, hard look at her outrage about "men usurping what should be mine", and to take responsibility for the kind of rage that I still hold, knowing that the roles can flip in an instant, and men can become dehumanised in my eyes as quickly as I have felt in theirs.

The trans debate, as far as I'm concerned, is intimately tied up with this rage. And I know that my rage can often indicate the presence of hypocrisy and a dominator/oppressor that I am unwilling or unable to see in myself.

I don't mind if this is unpopular. Sometimes the most unpalatable truths have been attacked until there is a shift towards a new perspective that is inclusive rather than exclusionary.

BertrandRussell · 01/09/2016 10:26

"Bertrand Oh yes, presumably you would like a little peer reviewed research too?

FFS if you can't see the intolerance on this site, then you obviously are being deliberately obtuse or you aren't terribly bright."

OK. Assume I'm not terribly bright. Explain it to me. In words of one syllable.

aleanasjourney · 01/09/2016 10:29

MephistoMarley

"trans males don't give up male privilege. It's embedded in them from birth and not something you can take off like a coat. "

That's right they don't give it up. Trans-males are FtM and they get Male Privledge

"but that's not the line taken by many trans activists. Real lesbians are feeling pressured to have relationships with males with penises and are being made to feel phobic and hateful if they rule them out"

I am a 47 year old Transwoman if you don't want to go on a date with me then don't. I don't think you are phobic or hateful in any way shape or form. In fact I would rather a person be honest and say no thank you. I am cool with that. Yes I will agree that there might be some Trans out their forcing this issue, and they are wrong for doing so. The voice I am raising in one of common sense. Yes I can be called an activist....

"im talking the morals which I live by personally and professionally, shared by doctors, psychiatrists, teachers etc. That allowing children to make decisions that will impact them for their whole lives before they have the maturity to understand the consequences is morally wrong"

I think your confusing morals with ethics. The two can share some ethos but are not the same where morals are driven via personal opinions. So what Morals are you using Religous, cultural, personal or something else?

Most western world Psychiatrists and Endocrinologists are using the DSM-4 and the World Health guidelines followed by the Gate keeper Model. No child can make this choice on there own, In fact in Australia it requires the Family court to be involved. So as you can see there are checks and balances that are in place to make sure that the interest of the child are in the best for the child.

black== trans. Don't do that

Yup I went there, to show the absurdity of the idea of the statement that it is about rights. If it is wrong to use the issues of Black lives Matter then at the same time it is wrong to use it for Transgender. The statement is old as the hills and it is wrong no matter who you place in it.

"gender == sex. Trans people are not intersex. Don't do that"

I did not state that, please reread my reply

OP posts:
FRETGNIKCUF · 01/09/2016 10:30

MsStri

Seriously women as the dominant?

Heard of Cherno Biko? Transwoman rapist. Men as a class still hold privilege, that's why the trans movement has so much more traction in its short time in comparison to feminism in its entirety

FRETGNIKCUF · 01/09/2016 10:31

MsStri

Seriously women as the dominant?

Heard of Cherno Biko? Transwoman rapist. Men as a class still hold privilege, that's why the trans movement has so much more traction in its short time in comparison to feminism in its entirety

FRETGNIKCUF · 01/09/2016 10:31

MsStri

Seriously women as the dominant?

Heard of Cherno Biko? Transwoman rapist. Men as a class still hold privilege, that's why the trans movement has so much more traction in its short time in comparison to feminism in its entirety

BombadierFritz · 01/09/2016 10:32

women are socialised to repress and internalise rage and punished heavily by society for expressing it. I find it very interesting ms stricty that you interpret your rage as a sign of being a dominator. do you think that women oppress men generally in society? I also feel that rage. I rage at men yet again defining and objectifying women. I personally do see similarities to issues around race because I see a privileged group (men/white) telling a non privileged group (woman/person of colour) that sex/colour is something you can identify in or out of, that they feel female/ black therefore they are, that it is a state of mind so it doesnt actually matter if they look female/black, or do one one day and no another, that they have a female/black mind etcetcetc. this does give me the rage tbh but not because I am a hypocrite or part of the oppressor class.

aleanasjourney · 01/09/2016 10:37

FRETGNIKCUF

If I understand what you are trying to say is that the rights that of Transpeople will negatively impact the rights of Women as a whole?

If this is correct then I will point you to Tasmania Australia where trans rights are one of the strongest in the world and getting better. But there is still issues with Pay equality (oops there isn't). Well there might be on contracts that are not in line with the government standards.

OP posts:
FRETGNIKCUF · 01/09/2016 10:38

*Aleana
*
You use false equivalents which only adds to my opinion that you have no valid argument.

Do you think male bodied people should use women's changing rooms?

Do you think male bodied people should have access to women's shelters?

Do you think male bodied people should be in women's spaces like hospital wards or prisons?

PlumCrumbles · 01/09/2016 10:40

Male lactation is (almost irrelevant to the topic) not the biological norm and is an indication of pathology; tumour, liver failure, excessive drug use. It does not mean that "men can breastfeed."

There is no evidence that the "milk" produced under these circumstances is equivalent in composition to "female milk."

FrancisCrawford · 01/09/2016 10:40

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

user7755 · 01/09/2016 10:40

I'm fed up of hiding these threads. I will hide this one too but before I do, I just feel the need to say that I'm disgusted with the awful bullying aggressive attitude that seems to be growing on here. People are using a tiny number of extreme situations to justify prejudice and hatred towards a marginalised group. For some reason it's considered to be acceptable, where it wouldn't be for any other group (it's exactly what groups like the EDL do and I think we all know that they're racist arseholes). FWIW I think MNHQ have dealt well with this awful little rebellion and my respect for them has grown because of it. I'm just irritated and bored of the petty, judgemental, angry groups who are trying to browbeat people into hearing their prejudiced views.