MNHQ - if you are going to contribute your thoughts to the trans debate, can you use a new thread

[Ego147]

Because there are people who are part of the debate but have hidden and don't want to contribute to the threads you want to post on.

So please can you post your thoughts on a new thread. It would be open, its own thread and clear to see - rather than hidden in a post on a thread.

And I do appreciate that you have a lot of issues here to think about and you are not going to please everyone. Whatever decision you come to will be 'the wrong one for some'.

Enjoy your and at the staff meeting you will inevitably be having about this.

YY Basil. And I have just realised I have been remiss in not emailing MNHQ myself. I will do so.

Ego147
I was interested in what you consider 'transphobia'.

I was interested in what you consider 'transphobia

What part of 'this is not the thread for that discussion' is hard to understand?

I have been on MN for many years. I have had that discussion. I have been flamed for it. Plus other stuff. If you read this thread, you'll get just a little taste.

So you can keep demanding I tell you. But I have told you quite clearly that this is not the thread for that discussion. It is not one that I want to have on here.

Pssst Mumsnet own this place and can post whatever be nice post they feel like wherever they feel like.
Just saying.

Ego147
Not trying to be difficult, but you're not being very helpful.

Not trying to be difficult, but you're not being very helpful

There was someone on the deleted thread who kept demanding to know it I reported someone. Repeatedly kept demanding

I really don't care if I am not being helpful or not. I have told you that I am not going to give you an answer - because whatever I say will open up a debate that I personally don't want to have. I don't understand why you keep demanding I answer you.

Ego147
I'm not 'demanding' anything, merely asking your opinion. You don't wish to reply, that's fine.

You don't wish to reply, that's fine

I believe I said that a while ago.

The Mumsnet definition of transphobia is seriously problematic. It reads like ritual feminine submission to MRA demands. I started off happy to respect pronouns etc, but the more I've read and seen the more I've hardened up. I will not be rude, but I'm not going to lie either.

This amazing post, originally from Mumsnet, but found on Reddit/GenderCritical sums it all up for me:

"I think it's an act of submission, to pander to a man's demands that we accept that he can be female one minute, male the next and "non-binary" the next, just because he feels like it (without ever defining what any of t these terms actually mean).

I mean, if the man was nice and a reasonably Good Egg, in personal relationships, I would pander, out of kindness; because I am a woman and I have been socialised to be kind and considerate of someone's feelings, particularly if that someone has a penis and XY chromosomes.

But politically and in public discourse, women being forced to parrot unreality, is fucking Kafkaesque. It's like something out of the Handmaid's Tale. Being forced to refer to people like Ada Wells, Alex Thingummy with a beard and nice scarves and Danielle Muscato, as "she" is an act of real domination by male supremacists.

It is not just a polite nice thing to do. It has massive connotations for society's acceptance of reality. it has massive political implications for women, if any man anywhere, can force us to pretend he's a woman, just because he says so and if we don't we can be fined (in New York state), banned (from social media) and no-platformed from universities and other open forums."

Ego

I think it is perfectly reasonable for you to hide the threads you want to hide, same as for any poster.
I also think MNHQ do need to be clear on their views including reiterating the above^ if their policy has not changed of late.
I think unproven accusations of having a whole thread deleted are unfair particularly as MN are accountable for that decision. I am very sorry for the shit thrown at you on reddit, totally unneccessary. I really think MNHQ ought to have reinstated that thread with responses deleted for breaking their guidelines whilst confirming what their guidelines currently now are.
This thread is a reasonable request for all the reasons both you and Oscar stated.

I'm not bothered where MNHQ respond as long as they do and as long as their thinking has moved on from:

accidental slip-up - OK but don't do it again
deliberate, malicious 'misgendering' - deleted as PA

Sometimes it's simply necessary to refer to the sex of a person, even when that contrasts with how they see themselves, sometimes even when we have sympathy for them as a distressed human being. It's neither accidental or malicious, there are just some occasions when we need accurate language to describe what is being done to us as women. If we don't have the words to describe what's happening we have no hope of fighting it.

To tell women they are not allowed to identify a man as a man when that man is threatening women's safety or rights is a massive gaslighty headfuck.

That reddit thread calls mn "infiltrated by trans and monitored by their handmaidens". Fuck that.

Sorry about another derail.

I agree with ego

Wherever MNHQ post their thoughts it is sure to trigger many other posts

A new thread stating how they wish to move forward would enable posters to comment whether they are comments for or against

I agree with ego

MNHQ need to consider this properly and deliver a well thought out response in a place where all can find it.

FWIW Ego is participating on the current "bullshit" threads and is posting in an insightful and thoughtful and self aware manner and not merailing at all...

I didn't think the Spartacus thread set out to be distressing to transgender people. It set out to take a stand against arses like the one in Edinburgh and others who use their trans status to erode women's rights and sometimes abuse women. I don't know why Ego views this as so upsetting when I strongly suspect she is a person just trying to get on with her life, and is nothing like some of the people cited on that thread. Hitler and I are both vegetarians, but I'm nothing like him.

Iggi - completely agree, and I don't want that thread to be mislabelled either

That reddit thread calls mn "infiltrated by trans and monitored by their handmaidens".

That's not even slightly true. Worrying stuff. Interesting that this is all meant to be for the good of womanity, unless you're a woman who disagrees with them, then you're a handmaiden.

I do think the side groups and secret fb groups, etc cause a lot of trouble on here in general (not just trans issues), but that's another story.

^handmaiden has been used on MN threads too.

The deleted comments on this thread were reported by me.
I wanted to know what MN would do and I also thought the original dig at the OP (which funnily enough has not been deleted) was unnecessary.
So...calling the OP egotistical and accusing them of being a special snowflake was not deemed personal.
.......saying "of course if a man says something it will get done" was not deemed to be a dig at the OP.
But.......the subsequent comments connecting the above comment directly to ego being a man (as opposed to a trans woman) were deleted.

Kimmy - I've not known this fingerpointing about comments being deleted before. It's generally known that there are far more lurkers than posters on a thread. Anyone could be reading and anyone could be reporting posts. If MNHQ agree a post has broken the talk guidelines, then off the post goes.

Absolutely ipity, I just wanted to be clear that the aforementioned posts on this thread had been reported by me not ego. I neither know nor care who has reported what on other threads, I seldom do, but will report if I think someone is having a dig for the sake of it. (So I reported a thread about cbb being cliquey the other day as it was just unnecessary). but out of courtesy and because I stand by my actions, I will usually say on a thread 'reporting', many do. I didn't on this occasion as I did not want to influence the moderating decision iyswim: given the fact that I said on the the report "OP is being referred to as a man when they are a post op trans woman" I would take from that that MN guidelines have not^ changed.
I personally think that MN don't suppress compared to other sites and the amount of trans discussion over the last few years and threads that stand reflect that. I also have no problem with the general ethos of "play nice" but can understand why women have a problem with it if they feel that, in itself, is patriarchal.
That said, your post at 12.19 and Pax's post are, ime, true which is why I think ego is damned if she does, damned if she doesn't. If she engages, she is told she is merailing, if she doesn't she's told she is avoiding. Poor bugger cannot win, and if she's who I think, she has been engaging for years and still gets little respect for that, only put downs.
I can agree to disagree without being offended, but when a minority og posters come across as when I want your opinion I'll give it to you, fuck that, I'm out. (

MNHQ have just used the Spartacus post for their response...

Thanks for flagging it up, Olena.

Thanks

And as predicted, it's caused some debate. Maybe MNHQ should start a thread outlining their response.

OTOH, if a bell had rung every time something new was being said, it wouldn't have been very noisy. I can see people feel strongly about this, but a great majority appear to feel the same, with the same reasoning and even the same words.