This is bullshit thread #3

[HornyTortoise]

Following on from www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/2716917-This-is-bullshit-Thread-2

Open ongoing discussion welcome for anyone to join in.

Just tried to reply to see max posts were reached, hope this is OK to do...

Would you be happy calling a transwomen a transwomen rather than a man?

What about this bit Oscar?

although my post just now does address why I call PL a man and he

Why can't you call Pl a transwomen?

You just said that you'd be happy to have men, women, transwomen and transmen.

Ego if you disagree with Danielle Muscato, then why?

I agree with him. If PL Is a woman, so is he. If PL should be called 'she' then so should DM. And AD. And all of them.

YY Oscar I find it horrible for PL to be described as a woman and called "she".

I find it horrible for PL to be described as a woman and called "she

And that pretty much sums up the debate. I am sure there is some middle ground here.

Why not call an MTT a transman rather than a transwoman? If they are moving away from being men, that would be more accurate than "transwoman".

Yes, I will call MTT transwomen, but as humans are sexually dimorphic and transwomen are not women, they are a subset of men. I will not deny this and I will not lie about this. And I will not be forced to do otherwise.

I have reservations about using any descriptor containing the word 'woman' though, as I can see that this is the thin end of the wedge, and bang you end up in the mess we are in. The 'women' part of it gets emphasised linguistically, and then we have two groups of women. Again. No.

But - why is this my problem to accommodate? Why is MTT hurt more important than women's?

So many ways of looking at this! I disagree fundamentally with Oscar.

Transwomen are not women.
Legally, many trans women are women.

Humans are sexually dimorphic
This is true according to the organising principles by which humans have chosen to interpret biological observations. Historically, this organising principle had the aim of differentiating between men and women in order to control women's sexuality and fertility.

It has be one rule across the board, which means that if 'she' is to be used of any MTT the sentence 'this woman committed rape with her penis' has to be acceptable and meaningful.
Yes, it is meaningful. Moreover, it relies on a locally determined legal understanding of rape. In Canada, for example, there is no crime of rape. So in Canada you'd have to charge the same person with sexual assault.

And why the focus on willies?
Because of the conceptual history of one particular form of sexual assault in which a woman could be impregnated by a man who was not her husband. Historically, this was considered a crime against her husband (or her father, if she was unmarried) rather than against the woman herself.

It's not ok for anyone to rape anyone else. But the way we understand rape is a product of history and culture, and changes according to place and time.

The way we understand sex is also a product of history and culture and changes according to place and time.

I have to go out and do RL stuff!! .

I have to go out and do RL stuff!!

Darn it, me too! Probably just as well.

The real world beckons. Just a few thoughts.

It's great to not be the only TW posting on here. It makes a nice change.

It's also great that the debate has been civilised - it's hard posting some personal stuff about your issues on here and I am wary. But I do think it's important.

I do get many of the issues. I have been on here a long time and I do listen and understand. I hope that in return, people can at least try and understand at least some of the issues TW face.

I do understand how the debate has moved and 'self identifying' - along with all the gender stuff and 'I feel like a woman' is not helping. I got flamed on a trans thread on another forum for asking what people meant by that. It's not one of the things you ask.

But the RL world beckons. It's sunny outside

Slight X-post there

Why not call an MTT a transman rather than a transwoman? If they are moving away from being men, that would be more accurate than "transwoman".

Let's say for the sake of argument that I agree with this (actually I do but I'm in a tiny, tiny monority of MTT's). How on earth do we get there?

Calling MTT's women (or even transwomen) is offensive to some women.
Calling MTT's men (or transmen) is offensive to MTT's.

Why should women be the ones that give ground? They shouldn't.
Why should MTT's? Because they are men and part of the oppressor class so suck it up. Only they don't believe that. They have been told that they aren't men over and over again by helathcare professionals, support groups, friends, the media and liberal feminists.

So whilst I totally agree that this shouldn't be women's issue and shouldn't be a feminist issue. Whilst I agree that MTT are (despite how hurtful it is for many to accept) a subset of men, I can't see how we get there.

Transwoman and transman are terms that people understand. Sure they need refining and we need people to understand what that actually mean but I can't see how we can suddenly flip the two words. I also see why we shouldn't flip or devalue what the word woman means.

I'd accept either label but it's not as simple as that.

I want to see it. I want to support it. I want to be part of it. I can see the end goal but have no idea how we get there.

I think the whole point of the Spartacus thread was that we - women- are being pushed to call everyone who says they identify as a woman, a woman. We're not being pushed to call them transwomem but to call them women and say that they are women just like biological women. And if it comes down to a binary decision between man or woman then biology wins

YY Ego and Helen

And it is sunny! Catch it whilst it lasts!

Exactly statistically.

Now I really am off into RL....

We're not sexuality dimorphic because someone classified us that way, but because there are two distinct reproductive body types. As was said earlier about this, monkeys might not know if they're called man or woman but they know which one pushes out the baby monkeys!

helen and ego - if you're both still about - it's really interesting to hear you talk about this stuff and I hope you are both not too exhausted! What a shame we have come to this situation due to some overzealous individuals, whereby your very existence requires a Q&A session... I do think this dialogue is so important though, listening to each other is the only thing that will help us find a mutually beneficial solution to this whole mess.

I wanted to ask specifically about the negative connotations you both experience with the term "man" - now, although I have suffered a great deal of harassment and abuse at the hands of men, I still don't recoil in the same way at the concept of a male person. Perhaps it's because I come from a family of exceptionally kind and gentle men, on both sides. So because in early life I had really amazing examples of how men could be, I haven't subsequently developed an aversion to the idea of maleness, despite a multitude of negative experiences with men. I was wondering if your early experiences with men were different (no need to share any information if you feel this is too personal, btw) and also if you have tried any forms of therapy to help overcome these negative feelings about men, such as CBT.

I do understand how the debate has moved and 'self identifying' - along with all the gender stuff and 'I feel like a woman' is not helping. I got flamed on a trans thread on another forum for asking what people meant by that. It's not one of the things you ask.

Its not one of the things you ask, as there is not really an answer to it. Which again, is why the issue is so complex. Until there is an answer of what exactly is meant by feeling or living as a woman..I simply cannot even begin to understand it.

Whilst I agree that MTT are (despite how hurtful it is for many to accept) a subset of men, I can't see how we get there.

We get there by refusing to call MTTs women or female and by raising consciousness of this issue among women. MTTs who are allies of women can speak out as you and Miranda do.

Saying "I feel like I should be a woman" is ok with me. I don't understand what "feeling like a woman" means but I can reasonably see that you can feel like that.
Saying "I identify as a woman" is not ok because no biological woman chose this. We just are, its not something we can identify into or out of.

Still catching up, but this really summed up a large part of the problem for me. "Identifying out of" being a woman is something I do a lot of the time anyway - nearly all women do. It doesn't change the vast history of abuse, exploitation, marginalisation and objectification I've experienced because of being a human female. When I'm being "not feminine" I still have to work harder for respect. I still have to keep an eye open for sex-based threats to my safety. This is all because the cells in my body are XX, not what I'm wearing or the way I walk.

On safe spaces - This often makes me think of a therapist I saw for two years. He's highly qualified, with an excellent reputation. There was a whole bunch of stuff he just didn't "get". Many of my expensive sessions were taken up with me educating him about issues specific to women - not myself in particular, but all women. Everything from periods and miscarriages to subtle marginalisation at work and random sexual aggression. He was visibly uncomfortable with much of this, which must be why none of his previous female clients had gone into miserable detail for him.

Since then I asked for female therapists. I should have been able to discuss my individual responses to these issues, rather than explaining why their occurrence isn't my responsibility.

Lacking the whole shared history of women - and understanding of female-specific issues - renders a person unsuitable for certain roles with women. I'd say "rape counsellor" is the most striking example here, but there are plenty of others. If we then suppose the so-called woman counselling the rape victim has a penis, it should be obvious why that person shouldn't be anywhere near a rape victim. Unless we resist calling that counsellor a woman, rape victims are robbed of a crucial choice in their aftercare.

-It would be desirable to stand together against gender stereotypes and male violence

Is it desirable that we stand together though? Women have a host of issues related to fertility, childbirth, bodily autonomy, access to safe contraception and abortion which MTT (as born males) do not share or - in case of TRA - any willingness to show empathy or care towards. The level of erasure and silencing of women's biological needs & bodily autonomy is breathtaking. I personally think we have passed the point where we can stand shoulder to shoulder. Women and MTT both have problems arising from male violence, but our struggles are different and the most vocal trans have shown they are not trustworthy bedfellows. We can agree you have some similar issues, but we also have concerns of our own that we should not take our eye off - hard won and progress that was costly to the generations before us.

Transwomen can be feminists. Some of the TW on the last thread are :) Men can be feminists, too.

It goes without saying that no feminist can ignore or misinterpret female biology. No feminist can deny that women are oppressed because of their biology.

There are ways in which feminist issues impact on men, too, regardless of their gender choices. Feminist men understand this. Some feminist issues affect transwomen specifically. I don't see why we couldn't stand together on those, while appreciating we also have different issues.

Saying "I identify as a woman" is not ok because no biological woman chose this. We just are, its not something we can identify into or out of.

To me "identifying as X" just means you consider yourself to be X. It doesn't have to relate to things you choose or can opt out of. People can use that expression to refer to the sexuality they consider themselves to be, for instance.

And how other people treat you due to what goes on their own heads and the groupings they place you into, is also separate from the groups you identify as (consider yourself to actually belong to).

A homophobe might erroneously ID some guy as a homosexual for whatever reason (maybe he is very effeminate) then insult or harass him or worse. That guy is still a heterosexual, and can identify as such. Different issues.