Not sure where to ask about this awful terrible baby advice you have published?

[ridiculouspirate]

www.mumsnet.com/babies/features/developing-a-routine

What on earth?

Mumsnet advice pages used to be reasonably balanced and evidence based. Saw this shared on Facebook and wondered wtf someone was thinking?

Make it stop before someone tries this bollocks on their new baby!

I don't think anyone's denying the importance of a good night's sleep. But saying "and the only way to get that is to put your newborn on a strict feed schedule" is bad, bad advice.

Obviously the click bait title implies the only way but the actual article doesn't say it's the only way. It gives 9 steps to establish a routine. MN have advertised the article incorrectly.

Meh, agree it reads as quite old fashioned advice, but it's not something I can get that frothy over. It's like anything relating to babies, you read and decide if it suits you/your baby/your lifestyle/parenting style and give it a try.

I pretty much did all of those things listed and my kids are 2 and 5. They both slept 7-7 (ish) from about 12 weeks, which was amazing for the whole family (I need my sleep or my mental health deteriorates).

But I am very routine orientated, not even everyone is.

Yeah because some mothers enjoy sleep deprivation.

The point is, it's not always a choice. It doesn't work for everyone. My first baby woke up every two hours for two years, regardless, and needed to be held and rocked. It is horrible to feel that people think this is happening because you're not getting the routine right. My second baby didn't need all this, and self-settled regardless of being held for naps, and would feed every 3 hours naturally. Mothers do not create these babies that the rules don't fit. You can't rock or hold or feed a baby that does not want it, they will let you know, the same way they will let you know the opposite.

The 3-4 hour thing needs to be balanced with advice that takes into account the reality of establishing breastfeeding - that there will be periods you need to feed much more often and you're not doing it wrong, or not making enough milk if you're pinned to the sofa. I know people who were walking around rocking their crying babies and at their wits end simply because "it's not time to feed them". There needs to be balance.

The way I see it, there is a ton of information out there that fits this mould, there are very few places to encounter advice and experience about cluster feeding, babies that can't be put down etc, and Mumsnet was always one of those places that represented the other side of the coin.

FWIW I do not see water in that bottle....it is almost empty with milk at the bottom but the photos are just grabbed from some photo library and nothing to do with Waddilove. There is also a note saying

NB: All babies are different and you shouldn't implement a strict feeding routine before your baby is ready. NHS guidelines on breastfeeding and bottle feeding are well worth a read.

so not sure why everyone is quite so agitated. Waddilove and Ford do not actually advocate waking babies fully at night, just enough to feed and with lights low etc so there is a differentiation between night and day. I think article is a bit simplified.
For those saying breast fed babies don't need winding. I breast fed my 3 for 12 months and they all needed winding after every feed.

No one is saying it doesn't suit some parents ams even some babies.

But this is a badly written article which does not even mention that 3 to 4 hourly feeding is nowhere near enough to establish breast feeding for most newborns and their mothers.

Yes half way down there is small print reverting to NHS advice. But the overall tone is about what you should do to get sleep.

There have been a lot of comments stating its bad and cruel advice.

Saying the article is written badly, it is too prescriptive but the advice is not bad.

"Put your breastfed newborn on a 3/4-hourly feeding schedule if you want it to sleep at night " is bad advice, yes.

For some.... Not for others. Some people myself included have done this. Us on advice from the hospital.

Sorry didn't see you added the word breast fed. I can't comment as I couldn't breast feed. The article does not state breast feed every 3 hours it states feed and does say about all babies being different.

Breast fed babies are pictured. No differentiation is made.

Current advice is to feed brand new FF babies on demand rather than a schedule too mind you.

"Here a suggestion for one way of doing this" is one thing.

"Here is the way you should do this, and if you don't do this your baby won't sleep" is a very different thing.

Plenty of newborns, especially breastfed ones, need to be fed more often than 3-4 hourly. This doesn't mean they are "snacking" and won't sleep until you space out their feedings, which is what the article says.

Also, a baby cannot self settle to sleep, it's either CIO or you help them

Well that's not necessarily true. My baby self-settled to sleep when she was very little (under 4 months) and didn't cry to settle. She just lay on her blanket (nap time - blanket on the floor where I could see her) and fiddled with a muslin cloth until she fell asleep, no tears at all and no help from me.

"If your baby is a few weeks old you may need to leave him to have a shout for a bit longer. Sometimes he might take twenty minutes or so to settle. If you know that he is well fed and tired it is better to leave him to settle on his own."

This kind of thing makes me go cold.

Wtf mumsnet??

This article very much goes against current NHS advice against swaddling and demand feeding for bf and ff babies.

Well, the advice is perhaps a little out of step with current methods but it's hardly 'dangerous.' Some of you just like to get all hysterical

I can confirm - as the parent of an 18 year old and a 9 year old - that whether you wake them for a feed/swaddle them/ leave them without milk for three hours/ whatever .. it's all the same in the long run. I'd personally find something more worthwhile to get in a flap about. Advice changes all the time, just do what feels right for you

And it's not just the feeding advice, either! This, for example:

"Babies need to be swaddled and tucked down in their cot or pram to have their daytime naps, as well as at night. This will help them to self-settle, which is so important for them to learn from a young age. Babies who are rocked, nursed or carried around every time they need to sleep will very quickly get into this habit."

I had a baby who would not nap unless held. Would. Not. Screamed and screamed and screamed and screamed. And yet I kept on trying to make her nap in her cot - partly because of advice like this (and the bloody Baby Whisperer!) which I'd read. Advice like this doesn't say "all babies are different", it says "your baby NEEDS to be doing this, and if they're not it's because you've got them into the wrong habit." And that is pretty shit advice, when you're already exhausted, feel like you're failing, and can't work out why your baby isn't doing what it's 'supposed' to be doing.

Mumsnet (the site and the forums) were a great resource for me back then. They were really good at helpful, balanced advice that said all babies are different, get by the best you can, there are lots of things to try and there is no One Right Way. Which is why it's so disappointing to see MN now putting out advice like this.

Hi all and thanks for your thoughts on this.

We tend to think that there are many ways to skin the proverbial cat when it comes to parenting, and generally we try to make parents lives easier by helping them find the approach that works for them and their families.

Clearly lots of you feel that this method is not for you, but others on the thread (and probably others who haven't commented) have followed this or similar 'gentle routine' methods with success.

But you're right - the tone of this page is a bit prescriptive. We should flag more clearly that this is one approach of many, and we should also make it clearer that a feeding routine isn't for the early weeks. We'll get that sorted on Monday, when the content team are back at their desks.

Thanks all for you feedback.

It's bollocks.
Shame on mn
Totally agree with everyone mrsdv said!

Fucking hell! That telegraph article is so irresponsible! There is a huge amount of evidence based research going in to the SIDS guidelines. People are free to ignore that if they want to and I totally get that people might want to weigh up the risks and do what feels best to them BUT I think it's completely different to get paid to advise other women to ignore this advice and in such a prescriptive 'this is the only way you will sleep' way.

No one is objecting to routines on this thread at all or saying that this doesn't work. People are cross about new mums being given advice which is against SIDS advice and which could really cause problems with breatfeeding as well as make anyone who has a baby which doesn't fit with this way of doing things feel like a failure.
Really disappointing mumsnet

And you can amend it to say it's not for the early weeks/not for breastfed babies/highlight the SIDS advice but it is clear from that telegraph article that the author thinks it is for the early weeks and doesn't really care about the SIDS guidelines