Hey MNHQ. Would it be possible to have a discussion about how SN issues/threads are handled on the main boards.

[Pagwatch]

I know you are fire fighting a bit and I'm not trying to stir things up.

I just think that there are endless threads that require you to get involved and try to (for the sake of a better word) mediate between pissed of posters with no real experience of SN/disability and pissed off member of the SN/disability community.

I think you try really really hard to be fair and even handed. It's an understandable response but I have growing doubts about it.
There have been half a dozen threads recently where posters I recognise as living with SN/disability issues deal with a continuous stream of posts from any random who pops up on a thread making the same stupid, ill informed or frankly goady post.
It's like swimming through a tidal wave of shit.
Then, as posters get increasingly exasperated by each arriving poster saying 'well I'm not putting my buggy away if my baby is asleep' or 'why can't I use the disabled toilet if it's empty' or 'but people with SN can be violent. I know of stabbing someone and attacks all the time' they get rude and the thread descends into eurrgh.

I'm still reading constant posts where anyone affected by disability is berated if they are angry, the message being 'be nice, be grateful or we don't have to be fair'

It seems to me that the status quo of 'fairness' is simply unfair.
Posters already dealing with immense difficulty shouldn't be forced to defend themselves against every person who turns up and says unpleasant things under the umbrella of debate. You said a long time ago it was not our responsibility to educate but the reality is that, with no palpable support from you guys, we are endlessly having to educate.

I am not pretending to have the answer but is it possible to contemplate methods by which you could actually say to posters saying 'if someone in a wheelchair can't use their space because I'm not putting my buggy away' that their comments are wrong and not in the spirit of the site?

You link to the This Is My Child campaign but the posters who are the problem won't care and won't read it.

I don't know - I just wonder if you could think about this.
Sometimes there are not two sides to a debate because only one side is directly affected, exhausted, distressed and having their lives and their children's lives made harder.

i don't read guest blogs as a rule, but that one is good.

Thanks, Rebecca.

I'm a bit scared posting on this thread as don't want to upset anyone and I 100% agree with the general idea.

But here are my thoughts - I don't think posts saying 'I won't fold up my buggy' could be deleted as disablist.

They're selfish, entitled and ignorant but I don't think you can moderate for ignorance. There's tonnes of it on this site and always will be. Not just about disability but about immigration, other cultures, abusive relationships. Rape and child abuse apologists or minimisers.

There are twats everywhere in RL and on MN. And sometimes some people are being twats deliberately and sometimes they're just ignorant.

It's hard for someone with no experience, education or knowledge to understand that ADHD or ASD (for example) effects impulse control and it's really not as simple as 'they've got to learn to behave like everyone else'.

Well, they bloody can't because it's part of a neurodevelopmental disorder where not learning from experience is often a fundamental part of the disorder. But I can understand how people who don't understand simply. ..don't understand because it's not within their experience or frame of reference.

The world would be a better place if everyone did understand and were accepting of behaviours they/their children don't exhibit but I don't see that happening ever to be honest.

I don't think we can delete posts saying 'I won't fold my buggy down or my son has ASD and I make sure he never behaves like that because it isn't acceptable'. If we did, we'd have to delete every post that minimises or excuses D/V, rape or abuse. Every post that expresses an uneducated view of immigration or Islam 'I'm not racist but ...'. Every post that minimises mental health problems 'I had PND OP, I still managed to do X, Y and Z.

Lots of people live in small worlds of their own frame of reference and experience. And that's not a criticism or meant to be patronising, it's just life.

Well on those occasions you are denying a person with a disability the chance to travel or judging someone's behaviour pejoratively without making allowances for their disability so I am inclined to disagree with you.

Those situations are examples of what I meant above when I said that sometimes, it can be uncomfortable for people,to,examine their own behaviours.

Of course no one wants to think they are being disablist/racist/whatever. But as fanjo points out, those people who are 'just' being selfish are actually denying a person with a. Disability the right to go about their life without hindrance. They are making themselves a barrier to acceptance and inclusion. What else call it, other than disablist?

Of course it's easier to say 'well, I'm just going to carry on being selfish, because I have. A colicky baby/my pray is hard to fold/I was just exhausted and didn't need one more complication/whatever' rather than 'well, actually, I think I deserve that space more than the person who actually needs it, the person who cannot manage any other way, because I think I'm better than them in some way'. But easier does not equal right.

Much as I like the idea of deleting every twatty/nasty/disablist post I do agree that it would be hard to moderate.

On that thread about the playpark there was a huge amount of ignorance, but it was the posts that were out and out cuntishly stupid and nasty (eg SN or no SN that girl deserved a slap / SN is no excuse) that would be easy to identify. But there are more grey areas, and it would be hard to ensure consistency.

Love the idea of a strike rate, and naming and shaming gf name-changers though!

Also agree that MN should step in far more often as the SN brigade, and also explain why a post was deleted.

I hope I am never actively disablist, nor thoughtlessly obstructive to those with disabilities and their families.

But I'm lucky enough to have very little experience of disability - we know a few children with DS and one or two with ASC dx, but that's basically it.

So it's MN that teaches me most of what I know about what it means to have a disability (or indeed more than one) and/or to care for someone in that position.

I don't feel qualified to comment on disability matters so I mainly lurk, but I know I'm learning. I notice when an accessible toilet has had its emergency cord neatly tied up out of the way; I remind myself I don't want the disability and I don't need the toilet/space in the car park; I read blogs people link to about how meltdowns differ from tantrums.

I don't think OP is asking for deletion of all opinions that differ from the ideal, only for those which are actually discriminatory. And that seems fair enough to me.

Fanjo - can I just point out that I'M not saying that is okay. I would never deny a person's right to travel and never have. I didn't think I needed to make that clear, I thought it was implied that I agree with the points raised but do not know how it could be moderated/applied on MN. I disagree with those attitudes but I'm suggesting that's why it would be difficult to moderate. I agree you're right, I'm saying I can't envisage a way to moderate that.

And your response 'you are denying....' (although I understand from seeing many of your posts) is why I was scared of posting here and probably why this thread is a few posters who all hold the same view talking amongst themselves and not a discussion about the issues themselves.

I wasn't saying that's what I think or how I behave - I'm saying lots of people do and ignorance can't be addressed by deletion or moderation.

I didn't mean YOU. I meant the generic "you". The person who said it.

So sick of not being able to say anything without unleashing a tirade of defensiveness tbh.

You already said you didn't hold these views so no idea how you could even assume I meant you personally.

But so quick to comment about how this is just a few posters as we are so scary.

Tbh, I think the thread is (mostly, to any and all who have popped by out of sheer interest) populated by a few posters talking amongst themselves because, umm, lots of posters will be giving it a swerve due to the mention of SN.

Some in a not interested, doesn't affect me, way.

Some in a not again way

Others because, well, times limited, and there's probably more interesting thread titles popping up in Active (sorry, Pag).

I don't think it's fair to pin any of it at fanjo's door, tbh.

Everyone always does.

Heartily sick of it.

I'm not spoiling for a fight Fanjo but you said 'you' and ended 'I am inclined to disagree with you'.

Sorry if you didn't mean me or you weren't disagreeing with me but that's what you said so of course I'd think you were addressing me. Most people would when you say 'I disagree with you'.

I understand you're tired and exasperated. I didn't want to make it worse and debated whether to post or not. Sorry, I shouldn't have.

You don't need a degree in English to work out I meant the generic you first time and then that I was disagreeing with your point.

It's the natural way of wording it.

If you aren't spoiling for a fight you are certainly nitpicking a lot for unknown reason.

Yes I've noticed that too fanjo. I'd like to see them named and shamed.

Just because something is difficult to moderate doesn't mean it shouldn't happen. It absolutely should happen. It will be interesting to see how changing moderation will change the way people post. Hopefully it will make most people think twice before posting hate.

I'm a regular namechanger and am disabled, with a child with additional needs, plus two others who are being assessed. I thought the "This Is My Child" campaign was a great idea but I've no idea whether it has been in any way successful. How was it evaluated?

I've noticed that it seems that it's OK to exclude kids with SN.

Given that many additional needs such as ASD aren't diagnosed until well into primary, it seems bizarre to exclude young children on the basis of their perceived behaviour, when it's perfectly possible that they're SN kids pre-diagnosis. I don't think that's a difficult concept but it seems to evade many posters regularly.

And by "exclude" I don't just mean not invited to parties. I mean avoided, swerved, gossiped about, play dates refused, moaning to teachers, complaining at the school gate etc. People seem to forget these are little kids.

Maybe MN could get a guest poster or web chat with prominent disability campaigner to highlight all those insidious subtle everyday occurrences of discrimination/exclusion that people with disabilities face. (Like the Everyday Sexism campaign.)

And MN to come onto each thread to support the OP or other posters who have to battle this attitude in rl and on MN. So it wouldn't always be down to the handful of posters to take on the role of educator, as well as facing accusations of aggressive an brigade etc.

There was a thread recently from a woman trapped in her car by a selfish fucker blocking her into bb space. She was imo justifiably fucked off, but got a barrage of abuse and I thought it was a classic case of 'othering' (ie not sticking to narrative of meek grateful disabled person) and the thread ended up being deleted. This has happened lots of times I remember, primarily because ignorant selfish giant fuckers end up turning the thread into a gunfight, not because of the OP.

*goady fuckers not giant ones!

I follow threads like buggy on bus and zip wire with an open mouth, amazed people can be so...un analysing if that is a word, and so unempathetic that they cannot see the rubbishy they are saying. I really do not get why we are still having to ask other adults to take a breath and think about someone else's situation.
fanjo I nearly PMd you after buggy gate, but I don't know you so chickened out. So I'll say it here. You stated your case clearly and unemotionally on that thread and anyone who could not understand the points you were trying to make, just was not willing to do any critical thinking. And why wouldn't parents/adults/children with or without SN get angry. Anger is a feeling we are all entitled to and entitled to express. How others deal with that is their issue.
Hope MNHQ really think about this issue and actually listen to the reasoned arguments Pag and others have put up.

Good and posters are lol at it

Blimey.

If you're still reading, MNHQ, the thread MrsDeVere linked is one worth making your debut as the SN brigade on...

Agree that it totally proved the point...