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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

999 replies

OhShutUpThomas · 24/01/2016 09:37

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

OP posts:
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IceBeing · 27/01/2016 18:44

Im not sure being called a goady fucker is that polite actually...but yes - this thread probably isn't very representative.

HermioneWeasley · 27/01/2016 19:31

The protest or not thread is hardly mixed, and there's not a lot of discussion so people who don't agree could just post that and disappear.

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 27/01/2016 19:39

As i said on the poll thread. If someone feels so strongly that they are contacting mn directly, what is stopping them turning off PMs, namechanging, posting "support" on the poll thread (or even better, their argument here), and then instantly hiding the thread so they dont feel attacked by a large chunk of posters all replying at the same time

OhShutUpThomas · 27/01/2016 19:44

I'd really be interested to hear the possible arguments in favour of this.
As apart from 'women don't deserve to play top level sport anyway if they can't be as good as the men' and 'you're all transphobes!!' I'm yet to hear anything.

OP posts:
FelicityFunknickle · 27/01/2016 19:47

I agree with the OP.
I would back such a campaign

BeyondBootcampsAgain · 27/01/2016 19:47

Well, exactly.

kua · 27/01/2016 20:06

icebeing why would you not think it was? The majority of users are women and by and large are not afraid to share their opinions!! Check out some threads re bottle/ breast feeding , home birthing vs elective CS/ long hair vs short hair post 40s ( l jest)

The women that post here have strong views of which I am thankful for, even if I disagree. I normally find a point in the conversation of which I hadn't considered before (though not always).Wink

Name changing to post an opinion or not to "out" oneself is very common and is known to most members. So, I would question the idea that HQ is being deluged by those who do not want to "go against the majority view.

If they are, they will be able to see if these posters are new/ or having multiple accounts from the same IP address. So I'm not concerned about that.

I would ask that those that have questions/ concerns ask them without fear.

Knowledge works both ways.

Vazder · 27/01/2016 20:10

this thread probably isn't very representative

Shock Hmm

QueenStromba · 27/01/2016 20:13

Would the testosterone levels need to be checked by the IOC or would they accept evidence from routine GP or consultant tests? If the latter then there could be plenty of men and transwomen with a record of their testosterone levels for last 6/7 months that could therefore qualify for Rio. Do the guidelines even specify how often the testosterone level testing should be done? I'd wager that someone who has recently transitioned like Jenner would be having reasonably regular hormone level tests.

It's too late for a man to start the process now with the sole purpose of competing at Rio but there could well be plenty of transwomen who already have the appropriate medical records.

fascicle · 27/01/2016 20:18

The design and wording of the poll are not neutral/unbiased and some people's views will not be represented by the available voting options. I can see why the poll thread and other threads discussing trans issues might not be representative of members' views and why some people might be reluctant to post on them.

KacieB · 27/01/2016 20:31

Have read the whole thread and while I agree, I'm wondering what people think a Mumsnet campaign could actually do?

kua · 27/01/2016 20:34

fascicle or may be they don't have a view point either for/against as I have in the past re various campaigns. And that's fine.

venusinscorpio · 27/01/2016 20:43

The design and wording of the poll are not neutral/unbiased and some people's views will not be represented by the available voting options

How does "Support the ruling", "protest the ruling" or "abstain (for any reason)" not represent people's views exactly?

IceBeing · 27/01/2016 20:44

kua I got stomped on thoroughly and I am not even in favour of the IOC ruling...I just had a difference of opinion on whether womens only competitions actually help or hinder the feminist cause....

I can imagine anyone who actually agreed with the IOC wouldn't want to say so. It is harder to ignore people telling you you are a goady twat than you might think.

Just because you are anonymous doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.

venusinscorpio · 27/01/2016 20:49

A Mumsnet campaign could potentially raise awareness and provide a balanced view of the issues which is currently lacking in the mainstream media and which didn't shit all over women's rights. It could signpost to trans support organisations and promote women's sport. It would be topical with the Olympics this summer and certainly attract attention.

But I understand their reasons for not doing so fully. It's just very depressing that no one will present many women's views on this, and no one asks us. Thus we get steamrollered over in favour of pandering to other groups.

venusinscorpio · 27/01/2016 20:52

It is harder to ignore people telling you you are a goady twat than you might think.

You were derailing with a POV which was not directly relevant to the subject under discussion, IMO. I also thought as others did that you were being disingenuous. I apologise for calling you a GF, it was out of order.

merrymouse · 27/01/2016 21:03

I don't understand why somebody would be reluctant to post a view on this subject that went against the majority, assuming that their point was well argued and logical.

I agree with the previous poster - people feel able to post opposing views on, among other subjects, abortion,vaccines, feminism, dogs, loo brushes, vaping and wearing pyjamas on the school run.

If there is some angle that we have all missed, surely atleast one person would feel able to explain it on an anonymous, moderated forum?

CoteDAzur · 27/01/2016 21:13

Queen - The problem is not just testosterone levels.

Men have about 10-20% greater bone density than women.

Men have on average 36% greater muscle mass than women.

Men tend to have approximately 40% greater upper body strength and 20-30% greater lower body strength than women.

Men have larger lungs and greater lung volume, which leads to about 50% greater lung volume per unit of body mass than a woman of the same size

Men have physically larger hearts (about 10-15%) than women, and so have greater cardiac output leading to greater endurance.

Men have about a 10% higher erythrocyte count and a higher hemoglobin level, which leads to a higher oxygen-carrying capacity, which also leads to a higher endurance

Men produce more erythropoietin than women and also do so at a faster rate, leading to faster production of erythrocytes at altitudes

Men produce more clotting factors and have a higher platelet count, meaning that they heal faster from wounds inflicted during sports.

Source: any physiology textbook.

Taking estrogen downplays a few of these advantages but it doesn't change the person's bone size, lung size, heart size, erythrocyte, hemoglobin, or platelet count, or the amount of muscle mass that the person had before taking the hormones.

The argument that estrogen makes the person weaker is false because we are talking about an athlete who is training, right? So it isn't as if the muscle that they already have is going to atrophy - the estrogen is just going to make it less easy for them to build new muscle as rapidly.

(The author of this post is a scientist in a related field.)

OhShutUpThomas · 27/01/2016 21:15

I got stomped on thoroughly and I am not even in favour of the IOC ruling..

I found what you were saying INCREDIBLY offensive and misogynistic.
Your whole point seemed to be that as women aren't as strong or fast as men, that it's embarrassing for them to be seen competing against each other because they 'can't compete with the best' so they should really just give up and let the men have sport.

I thought that your views were so offensive and distasteful, and that you were pushing them so hard on a thread which is abouta different issue, that you were being disingenuous.

So, we get it. You don't agree with the IOC guidelines; you think that women shouldn't play full stop.

If you want to discuss that, then why not make your own thread, and see what replies you get?

OP posts:
kua · 27/01/2016 21:17

icebeing I don't see where you have been stomped all over, tbh posters have spent A LOT of time in discussion with you far more than with others that have also posted comments.

OhShutUpThomas · 27/01/2016 21:18

Exactly kua.

OP posts:
RufusTheReindeer · 27/01/2016 21:56

I understand why someone mightnot want to post with an opinion that "goes against the flow"

However

I dont understand why on a forum that discusses racism, sexism, thecologne attatks, rape, children on planes, dogs shitting and too many other subjects where people post all sorts of things one subject is getting no contrary posts

I dont understand why on a "trans" thread you get arguments for and against but not on a subject which is just talking about one aspect. So its fine to come on a thread and defend the rights of a trans person to use the toilet they want but not play sport as they want to

I dont understand why on a thread which requires a one word answer people are unable to name change and post one word

I dont understand why MNHQ is unable to a least give a rough percentage of all those who either want to abstain or agree ( unless no one has requested this information in which case can we have the information please)

I call bollocks....which is ironic really Hmm

RufusTheReindeer · 27/01/2016 22:04

And to be honest i do understand that it may be very difficult for MNHQ to start a campaign about this, i have no problem with them not doing it

IceBeing · 27/01/2016 22:14

kua lol. you see all the deleted comments...maybe thats why you can't see the stomping.

The point is not that I can't take it (it wasn't me that asked for any deletions!) but that someone with the even more outlandish view that the IOC is right probably isn't going to submit to the pasting. Hence this thread likely isn't representative of the general views.

I am sure IOC protestors are in the majority - but not the sweeping majority seen here.

kua · 27/01/2016 22:17

Rufus this thread is to discuss born males competing against born females.

It is just that.

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