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Original poster

Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

999 replies

OhShutUpThomas · 24/01/2016 09:37

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

OP posts:
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IceBeing · 26/01/2016 20:07

wow - on a thread absolutely full of one opinion...and you can't face a single note of opposition without throwing a strop?

I don't think the IOC is right btw....I just think they have thrown into sharp relief the general pointlessness of professional athletics altogether.

It used to be a test of talent and commitment...now it is just a genetic freak show.

Original poster
OhShutUpThomas · 26/01/2016 20:07

Must not bite!

OP posts:
IceBeing · 26/01/2016 20:09

venus weight classes is interesting isn't it? I mean some women could definitely kick the shit out of most men...its only the very few at the top they wouldn't be able to beat...and neither would the vast majority of men, especially if you keep the weight categories.

This is why this issue only really affects elite sport. You can do mixed boxing a club level and imagine many people do.

IceBeing · 26/01/2016 20:11

elendon some sports are already mixed so that isn't really true. Others could be and aren't...like golf, archery, shooting, sailing, anything genuinely skill based basically.

Original poster
OhShutUpThomas · 26/01/2016 20:12

I'm so glad that so many mumsnetters are behind this. The poll is almost up to 500, with a minority of one.

It's rare to see something so completely supported. It's quite heartening to read the online comments on news articles too.

OP posts:
IceBeing · 26/01/2016 20:15

itsall you seem capable of at least discussing the possibilities here...but why do you think it is more fair for a 5 foot woman to compete against a 6 foot woman than for a 6 foot woman to compete against a 6 foot man in the high jump?

The man has the highest centre of mass, so has a small advantage over the tall woman...they both have a fecking huge advantage over the short woman?

Sports don't become fair because you compete everyone of the same gender in the same category....

IceBeing · 26/01/2016 20:18

OP if you got off your high horse for a moment you would see I agree with the IOC being wrong in what they have done. I just don't think womens sport is something that needs protecting...in fact I think it is pretty demeaning to have to have womens only competitions....but I still think the IOC are wrong.

Darvany · 26/01/2016 20:18

Even in the seventies it was acknowledged how unfair this sort of thing is, and the comedy sketch characters were just teenage boys v fullly grown men.

Maryz · 26/01/2016 20:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JessicasRabbit · 26/01/2016 20:20

ice it seems that to you women's sport is merely a substandard version of men's sport. The IOC have effectively backed your opinion. And yet you claim to disagree with the IOC.

Those things combined suggest you are being patronising. "Of course I support women's sport but let's not pretend it's as important as real sport".

Elendon · 26/01/2016 20:20

So, have been on the Facebook page and it's absolutely fantastic!

Such vibrancy and discourse. Has made my day! Thank you so much to the organisers.

x

Darvany · 26/01/2016 20:21

Oops, the lads are much younger, it's a few years since I watched it and I assumed they'd be secondary age. I forgot the upper classes send them away so little.

The sporting discussions / Fallon Fox threads always remind me of the Masters V Boys rugby though.

Elendon · 26/01/2016 20:25

I'm jealous of Itsall.

you seem capable of at least discussing the possibilities here

I didn't make the grade. I could have been a contender.

Original poster
OhShutUpThomas · 26/01/2016 20:28

Elendon Grin

I'm not capable either, but I do have a lovely high horse from which to peruse the thread

OP posts:
IceBeing · 26/01/2016 20:29

maryz yes I suppose you are probably right. The relevance I think is because of the discussion of fairness. Trans sports people don't have a level playing field as it is....but trying to fix that is bonkers....because there are no level playing fields in sport. You can train as hard as you like and you can't become a pro if you don't have the right physique/genetics.

I think the trans thing breaks the artificial binary male: female divide in a more obvious way than the women who already dominate "womens" sport due to their abnormal testosterone levels....it makes it obvious that physical performance is a spectrum ....it makes it obvious that professional athletics is pointless.

Didn't the IOC have to ban genetic manipulation recently? Doesn't that make you wonder what the point of it all is? Usain Bolt is the fastest because of his genetics...but I would be banned from copying his genetic advantage in order to compete on a genuinely level playing field? why?

trufflehunterthebadger · 26/01/2016 20:30

has someone suggested a downing street petition to get this discussed in Parliament ?

i can't do facebook, i work for the police so so be associated with anything "phobic" in any way, however outrageous, would be career suicide for me. even this

deepdarkwood · 26/01/2016 20:30

An aside on the FB group. It is possible as a non- member to see a full list of members without joining. I assume that is intentional but should this campaign take off there may be done value in a fully secret FB group (which does mean no one can search for it so has its own disadvantages, obviously!)

OTheHugeManatee · 26/01/2016 20:32

No-one disagrees that there are variations between women and that therefore it's not an entirely level playing field. That's fine - I don't think anyone is arguing that sport has to be totally 'fair' or else it's pointless. But it's absurd to argue that because the class 'sex' has some variation we should therefore have no classes at all because a range of competition will still be there.

The accepted divisions within competitive sports are not arbitrary but based on normative performance levels that are consistent enough for a strong consensus around the divisions - at least until now. Competitive fields are classed based on groups about which reasonable assumptions may be made, such as age and sex in the case of track and field, or sex and weight in boxing. Sure, it's amusing to play devil's advocate sometimes but the fact that variation exists within those classes does not demonstrate the classes to be arbitrary, and it's disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

ThroughThickAndThin01 · 26/01/2016 20:33

If anyone does truffle it should be linked on MN, shame to waste the petitions topic.

Original poster
OhShutUpThomas · 26/01/2016 20:33

I'm not sure what parliament can do truffle, as it wasn't their ruling.

I don't think there is one yet, but there's talk of what to do next on the Facebook page.

OP posts:
MrsKCastle · 26/01/2016 20:34

"So if IceBeing's argument is correct, then the IOC should have the courage to completely get rid of the divide between men and women, and just have one open category for each event."

That wouldn't please transactivists though, would it? As far as I can see, TA don't want a separate category, or an 'open to everyone' competition. They want transwomen to be recognized as women in every way.

It's the equivalent of campaigning for access to the women's changing room, rather than campaigning for new, unisex changing rooms with separate cubicles.

venusinscorpio · 26/01/2016 20:38

Agree that trans women just want to be validated as women, not to do away with sex classes. And eventually this will backfire on them I think. Because non trans men will use it as a loophole. They won't have to remotely present as women, how could the IOC enforce that?

Elendon · 26/01/2016 20:38

Truffle

Write to your MP and ask for their advice and how they see it. Any correspondence between you and them is confidential. I cannot see anyone putting up a petition for this to be discussed in Parliament. This campaign has to be local and vocal for fear of reprisals. And confidential. I think you will be surprised at the response.

The Facebook page is secure, but you need to have secure settings on your own page.

Original poster
OhShutUpThomas · 26/01/2016 20:44

Exactly venus. I hoping that this will be a spectacular own goal.

What are they going to say when someone who is clearly male pitches up for the 100m? 'Er.....sorry but....could you put on a wig, or a bikini or something? We don't want to look like this isn't fair or anything, you see....'

OP posts:
IceBeing · 26/01/2016 20:48

Ohthehuge but the variation within classes is much MUCH larger than the variations between them! The top female sprinter is faster than 99.9% of all men...

We don't separate other professions by gender because there is a tiny difference in the average attainment by gender - that would (rightly) cause feminist uproar.

I am a female in a male profession because the difference in average interest level/attainment between men and women was ignored and only my personal achievement was considered.

going the other way you get situations like in the armed forces, where women are excluded from the front line because the average woman is less strong than the average man....even though the strongest women are more than capable of meeting the strength/stamina requirements of the front line.

This is why I think the sporting categories are damaging to the feminist cause.