Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

So if the limits put in place are within the normal limits of men couldn't we end up with a situation where a man enters a women's sports event without even having to do anything other than declare himself a woman if his natural hormones are lower than the limit?

Yup.

To be honest I find it embarrassing as a woman to have to have special competitions for people like me who can't cut it an open competition.

What is the argument in favour of having professional female athletes, when they can't compete with the best?

That's an interesting POV. I guess that things like height/race etc are on more of a scale, whereas sex is binary? Plus of course the best woman will (in most events) come nowhere near the best male. I guess it depends on if you believe if women should compete or not. If not, then that is a valid view. But if you do think females should have the opportunity to compete then it is only fair for them to compete against their own sex.

It is interesting though, the way the classifications in the para Olympics are so complex as disabilities tend not to be binary in nature.

So actually, this isn't about trans politics for you, Icebeing. I see. It's because you're such a special snowflake and so spectacularly good at badminton that you think you'd be better off competing against men. You might as well not bother turning up in some sports as you wouldn't have a hope in hell of winning. Still it's all about the taking part. Why, indeed, should women have any aspirations at all?

Your testosterone level is key to determining if you can be a professional sports person....I'm not sure why there should only be two testosterone level based categories to cover the whole of human diversity - lots of people are unfairly left behind on that one

Using testosterone levels to effectively determine sex is obviously complete bollocks. But it sounds nice and scientific, and agrees with then theory that men can be women - it might be considered transphobic to eg take pelvic configuration into account.

but if men have testosterone at the lower end then they can't compete fairly against the men with high testosterone....so why shouldn't they compete in a different category?

I guess it depends how many categories you want to have. There are obviously fairly significant differences, at a population level, between males and females - so if you want to keep things simple categorising by sex would be reasonable. And of course testosterone is not the only measure - your 5' male with high testosterone is unlikely to be as good as your 7' male with low testosterone.

Women with lower than average testosterone for women also can't compete fairly against the other women.

It is fair. Females with various female characteristics competing against each other.

Icebeing, would you enter a ring with Fallon Fox?

Lets just say that a certain country iss currently under scrutiny for drug use in athletics. And the women are still way behind men in terms of performance... The drugs used to do this tend to be not dissimilar to those used by women transitioning to men.

To me this does suggest that male to female will always have a distinct advantage before other factors are taken into consideration.

I therefore can not see how it encourages fair competition.

However since the IAFF doesn't seem to have the best record on that in recent years I'm not sure why we are expecting better anyway.

Icebeing do you usually talk such utter rubbish or is this a one off?

icebeing if the olympics want to create a new category for men with low testosterone or men who feel like women then nobody would object. But men, whatever their hormone levels, aren't women.

I am denied my preferred profession of boxer for more reasons than just being female....I also have a very low pain tolerance and bruise when brushing past things....so not being able to compete against the best men in the world at boxing isn't really my main problem.

And that is my point altogether. The overwhelming vast majority of people are disqualified from being professional sports people. Why does it make any difference that if sport was genuinely played on a level playing field a couple of thousand extra women would join the pile?

The point about club level play is that actually for a lot of women playing sport at a reasonable level, they would get better games/matches if the game wasn't gender segregated. The casual sexism in club level sport is HORRENDOUS. It has put me off several times.

If you want to get more girls/women into sport then stop with the one team for the boys, one team for the girls business. Let children/people play sport together instead.

That there is a massive gender difference was brought home to me last year - BBC Young Dance of the Year - all but one category was won by a boy, this is despite the number of girl dancers outweighing the boys dancers by more than 25 to 1

In DD's dance school 247 girls 3 boys - at DD's dance college 60 odd girls 10 boys (estimates)

WHY? Well girls legs aren't as long, their muscles aren't as strong, their tendons are actually attached in different ways as are some of their bones - their bones density is different. They can't jump as high or leap as far, they have less spins and less control, they can't move as fast or as smoothly.

Dance at this level is comparable with Olympic athletes & girls don't do as well

Honestly now, Icebeing.......are you truly being serious? Really truly?

....but really?

Im not going to waste my time reasoning with you. Read through these threads, read up on physical and biological differences between men and women, historical athletic records etc. It's pretty clear why sport should be sex-segregated to make it fair.

But you seem to be saying that because women aren't as strong as men, they should just STFU and that they don't deserve to play sport at top level, against other women.

Which is pretty abhorrent.

I think for many people competition (particularly at top level) is about winning, or at least a slight chance of it. Why would women and girls bother if they knew they were going to get thrashed by men every single time? Where is the incentive?

It's great to see actually, that NO ONE has put forward a coherent argument in support of the IOC decision - because there isn't one.

Yes, that's exactly what icebeing is saying

Apart from, "well who gives a shit about women's sport anyway". Which I suppose is technically a coherent argument, albeit abhorrent, as you said.

I am serious I am afraid.

Why should two women get to compete at the olympics for money just because they happen to be well over 6 foot tall?

Why should women who are 5 foot tall not have a category at the olympics so that they can compete in a fair way with each other?

Why is it okay to say...short people can't compete with tall people in most sports but whatever! they should shut the fuck up and give up all hope of a career in sport...but women...who also can't compete at the highest level should have their own special category to let them do so?

I genuinely don't see why it is obvious that all short weak people should be excluded from high level sport...but women should be given special dispensation?

I honestly think the feminist solution to professional sport is to de-segregate. Having a separate category for women feel a little like we are treating it as a disability...which I don't think it should be viewed as. There are sports women can be the best in the world at...and sports they can't. There are sports short people can be best in the world at...and sports they can't. Neither being short nor being female is a disability that requires special consideration IMO.

They shouldn't bother, venus. They should just STFU and accept that they're substandard. Why do they want a 'special class?' Entitled wenches.

The overwhelming vast majority of people are disqualified from being professional sports people. Why does it make any difference that if sport was genuinely played on a level playing field a couple of thousand extra women would join the pile?

Weelllllll.......it WOULD make a difference to the thousands of women excluded from sport.....but who cares about them? Moany cows should have been faster, shouldn't they?

of course women can still compete in sport....you just won't see many at the olympics.

Indeed. Women - know your place!

To be honest I find it embarrassing as a woman to have to have special competitions for people like me who can't cut it an open competition.

There are things I would find more embarrassing, if I had these views.

What is the argument in favour of having professional female athletes, when they can't compete with the best?

None at all.
Women are substandard to men. We've always known it. Men are bigger and stronger, so women should just fuck off back to the kitchen or their office jobs. Know your place and all that.

I mean, just who do these women think they are? Expecting to be professional athletes, competing on a level playing field with other women? Entitled much??

Women have been dominating women's sport for far too long. It's about time the men got a fair go at beating them pun not intended Fallon Fox

venus I care about real women doing real sport in their everyday lives if they enjoy it...I really think thats important. A few elite athletes out of a job I couldn't really care less about.

it is pretty apparent from everything from pay scales, through televising proportions to SPOTY that womens sport isn't seen as being at the same level as mens...because it literally isn't. I think it would be in the feminist cause to stop trying to pretend it is.

What about women who want to box? Should they get the shit kicked out of them by men, no matter how well trained and fit they are? Would you get rid of weight classes too?

But Ice you're making men's sport the default in ANY sporting event.

Now that's not equality and not in the spirit of the IOC.

And the Olympics is not an arena for professionals.

it is pretty apparent from everything from pay scales, through televising proportions to SPOTY that womens sport isn't seen as being at the same level as mens...because it literally isn't. I think it would be in the feminist cause to stop trying to pretend it is.

Yes.
It's the same reason that there are fewer female politicians, CEOs, executives, pilots etc.
It's because they're just not as good.

Oh wait.............