Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

Jeffgate was a DDOS and hacking attack against Mumsnet last summer. The perpetrators also had a police SWAT team sent to Justine's house and the houses of a couple of mumsnetters that were talking about it on threads or twitter. Jeffgage is the reason we all had to change our passwords and start logging in with our email addresses a few months back.

I wonder if we will see transwomen in equestrianism, where men compete against women.

I suspect not.

I compete in and follow various equestrian sports and I cannot think of one well known competitor who is trans, although there may be some at lower levels that aren't well known. As you say, it would make no difference anyway as they're probably the only sports where men and women can compete against each other on fair terms (I can't think of others, glad to be corrected)

I always think they should give the medal to the horse.....

I always think they should give the medal to the horse.....

OK...

I do not understand the problem here....

sport isn't a level playing field...surely that's the point?

Are short people able to compete against tall people in the high jump? nope. Is there a special category for short people? Nope.

Are people without the fast twitch muscle mutation able to compete against those with it in the sprints? Nope. Is there a special category for people without it? Nope.

The vast VAST majority of people are excluded from professional sport by their genetics. The number excluded by dropping women only categories is tiny in comparison.

If we are going to have a 'who is the fastest person over 100m' then fine get on with it...don't have separate categories for the people who would have been faster if it wasn't for their DNA...because that is ALL of us.

Thanks, Queen.

What is your point, icebeing? Are you saying we may as well not bother with women's sport at all?

I think that is what they're saying venus. Women get back in the kitchen, sport isn't for you.

I think the problem is that the "progressives" see no need for there to be any biological women competitors, it's enough that there would be trans women so the largely unimportant "women" category would be catered for. I'm sure we can expect to see that across the board in future.

Women are no longer considered oppressed enough to merit the attention of 'progressives'.

A really interesting thread. It as at the elite level that there needs to be sex segregated sports in most categories. Athletes train intensively to knock a few seconds off their competing time.

Male bodies have different biomechanics caused by the different pelvises and lengths of limbs. Nobody can change this.

Hopefully many of you in already but here's the link for the FB group again just to keep people aware it's there and they don't have to trawl through the thread for it

m.facebook.com/groups/ATWIWS

brilliant, thanks Nicki

For the avoidance of doubt regarding the ruling of the IOC, here is part of the ruling:

"Those who transition from female to male are eligible to compete in the
male category without restriction.

Those who transition from male to female are eligible to compete in the
female category under the following conditions:

2.1. The athlete has declared that her gender identity is female. The

declaration cannot be changed, for sporting purposes, for a minimum

of four years.

2.2. The athlete must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum

has been below 10 nmol/L for at least 12 months prior to her first

competition (with the requirement for any longer period to be based on

a confidential case-by-case evaluation, considering whether or not 12

months is a sufficient length of time to minimize any advantage in

women’s competition).

2.3. The athlete’s total testosterone level in serum must remain below 10

nmol/L throughout the period of desired eligibility to compete in the

female category.

2.4. Compliance with these conditions may be monitored by testing. In the

event of non-compliance, the athlete’s eligibility for female competition

will be suspended for 12 months.

2. Hyperandrogenism in female athletes

In response to the interim award dated 24 July 2015 in Chand v AFI and IAAF

CAS 2014/A/3759, the IOC Consensus Meeting recommended:

Rules should be in place for the protection of women in sport and the
promotion of the principles of fair competition.

The IAAF, with support from other International Federations, National
Olympic Committees and other sports organisations, is encouraged to

revert to CAS with arguments and evidence to support the reinstatement of

its hyperandrogenism rules.

To avoid discrimination, if not eligible for female competition the athlete
should be eligible to compete in male competition."

This is insane. Just insane. I'm completely with the Germaine Greers of the world on this.

And this on Caster Semenya. There is no data on what is normal range for a woman in this article.

www.theguardian.com/sport/2009/aug/28/caster-semenya-testosterone

The more I think about this the more annoyed I am. Ds is currently in the swimming pool and I'm watching his lesson. He is 7, he swims 4 days a week and well over 100 lengths in an hour.

He is well under the age of puberty, but he is clearly developing a mans body. He is tall and lean and you can see every muscle, the girls in his group do exactly the same training, but are not gaining muscle in the same way.

I'm not saying any of this to shout oooh look how great my ds is. I'm saying it because even at 7 there is a vast difference between the muscle and physiology of the boys and girls. And yes there are hormonal differences but it's so much more than just hormones.

If ds decides to continue training as he is till 17/18 a year of hormones won't change the advantage he will have from simply being born male, a female at the same level of competition couldn't compete.

Where will the inspiration for girls to enter sports if our desire to be PC over rules physical biology? I hope this comes over the way I intent and not some huge sexist ramble!

www.southend.nhs.uk/pathology-handbook/test-directory/test-directory-t-index/testosterone/

Some info on testosterone ranges^. The 10 nmol/l proposed by the IOC is way over the "safe" level for women, and is within the normal range for a male (albeit at the lower end).

My point is that all methods of restricting who can enter which competition are equally daft.

There is no more justification for a womens high jump competition than a short persons high jump competition or an over 50s high jump competition.

Why should there by a woman in the 100m final any more than there should be a white person in the 100m final? The fastest person on the planet is going to be male and black because male black athletes have a genetic advantage...so what?

It is already the case that the men's sports are higher profile than the women's sports in exactly the same way that the 'open' sprint final is more high profile than an over 50s sprint final would be.

To be honest I find it embarrassing as a woman to have to have special competitions for people like me who can't cut it an open competition.

What is the argument in favour of having professional female athletes, when they can't compete with the best?

Same lunar - my eldest is five and does ballet, and he has a six pack ffs!!

Maryz of course women can still compete in sport....you just won't see many at the olympics.

I can still play badminton at my local club...in fact I would get better league action if all leagues were open instead of gender segregated..because I could play against people who were the same ability as me instead of being the same gender...

Male bodies have different biomechanics caused by the different pelvises and lengths of limbs. Nobody can change this.

And there you have it in a nutshell.
Taking female hormones can't change everything.

but if men have testosterone at the lower end then they can't compete fairly against the men with high testosterone....so why shouldn't they compete in a different category?

Women with lower than average testosterone for women also can't compete fairly against the other women.

Your testosterone level is key to determining if you can be a professional sports person....I'm not sure why there should only be two testosterone level based categories to cover the whole of human diversity - lots of people are unfairly left behind on that one.