Trans people being allowed to compete against women in the Olympics

[OhShutUpThomas]

The Olympics are now allowing men who have taken hormones for 12 months compete against women.

It is NOT transphobic to say that this is grossly unfair and a huge violation of women's rights.

Women who have trained all their lives cannot be expected to compete against people with male bodies and who will be allowed roughly 4 times the normal female testosterone levels.

It's not on. We can't stand for it.

Please get behind this mumsnet. Someone needs to take a stand.

It's NOT transphobic to state that this is unfair. It really isn't.

There is no way to square the circle. Someone has to lose out. Why should it be women, as always?

This decision diminishes women's rights IamPissedOff. There is no option here that doesn't diminish one group's rights over another's.

The fact that we are ignoring biology in an issue which directly concerns biology, in favour of nebulous feelings is what is wrong here, not whether we should bend over backwards to be more "inclusive". This is not inclusivity. It's stupidity.

Because I don't think we can square the circle.

Whilst I fully support trans people's right to live their lives free from discrimination I will not support the eradication of women as a class. And that is what is happening.

Why can't we have men, women and unisex?

IAm, its a fast moving thread, i think most if these posters are x posting with each other, rather than intentionally piling on to dig the boot in

Of course people are going to disagree with you. What on earth did you expect? I think your reasoning is flawed, that's all.

I don't think anyone is setting out to belittle you or your opinion headmaster
This is such a touchy subject. What we are against, isnt trans women. We are against biological women's rights being trampled over. And sports comes down to biology, not how you feel.

I know there's been some concern about the FB group linked to and whether it's safe to post there. Just to reassure that the settings are locked down and all requests to be added are being looked at carefully. We were adding quite quickly at the beginning so will take a look back through those again. I think it's as secure as it can be and there's some good discussion and ideas coming out of it so far .

I actually found the comments on that Guardian article quite heartening.

It was interesting to see the transwomens' scepticism about the testosterone limit which seems to be what you might find in a non-transitioning male...

I found this www.southend.nhs.uk/pathology-handbook/test-directory/test-directory-t-index/testosterone/

that shows that the 10 nmol/l required by the IOC is well within normal testosterone levels for males (albeit toward the lower end), and way, way over the limit acceptable in a female.

'Crowd mentality'?

I feel personally attacked by that assertion.

This will have horrible effects on grass roots sport - especially for women and girls.

I sincerely hope that Sporting Bodies find the words to be able to speak freely to discuss this without having TRANSPHOBIC screamed at them.

I like this comment from the Guardian article:

To put this into some context.

The first male to run a mile in under 4 minutes was Roger Bannister in 1954. Nearly 62 years ago.

The first female to run a mile in under 4 minutes was... ....well, there aren't any. It hasn't been done. No woman has ever run a mile in under 4 minutes.

Despite all the science, the modern methods of training, applying all we know about nutrition, the current women's world record for the mile is 4:12.56 set by Svetlana Masterkova in 1996.

Let's put that into some context: how does that current record compare to the men's?

The closest time is the men's world record set by Norman Taber - 4:12.6

He set this record in the year 1915 so Masterkova's time is on par with a guy who probably ran in a flat cap and hobnail boots.

And it gets worse. Let's compare Masterkova's record with the current men's world record:

The current men's world record is...drumroll... 3:43.13 set by Moroccan, Hicham El Guerrouj in 1999.

That's nearly 30 fucking seconds of a difference. THIRTY SECONDS.

These aren't small differences. These are yawning, unbridgeable chasms of physiology and biomechanics. It's apparent in every single event and it scales by distance.

1500m Men: 3:26.00
1500m Women: 3:50.07
24 seconds of a difference

10000m Men: 26:17.53
10000m Women:29:31.78
Over three minutes of a difference

Men's Marathon: 2:02:57
Women's Marathon: 2:15:25
Nearly 13 minutes - thirteen fucking minutes

Even if it were possible to police the hormone level and rely on athletes to not attempt to flaunt the rules (and how likely is that?), these changes do not affect biomechanics, they do not affect lung capacity and they absolutely will not level the playing field. You're basically looking at biologically born women never winning a medal in anything ever again.

Sorry, I'm late to this party, but I would absolutely support a MN campaign on this - it's the only place I've seen knowledgable and informed discussion of trans issues, and it's really important that MN stands up for women's rights.

Why should the circle have to be "squared". I think biological women's rights should come ahead of transwomen who "feel like", but are not actually, women.

I guess the answer is Alis... the circle remains circle, and the square goes in the square hole. Or a third hole is created that can take both squares and circles.

Headmaster you have not been attacked or torn to shreds or anything similar on this thread. Having lots of people disagree with you is not the same thing as being attacked as long as those disagreeing are polite and not personal.

Accusing people who disagree with you of attacking and bullying is just an attempt to shut down discussion.

It is now on DOD too. Thank you hq :)

headmaster no-one seems to have called you names nor wished for serious illnesses to affect your reproductive organs or said you should be raped. You're doing pretty well compared with the things that have been said to me and others for not agreeing that transwomen are women without limit or question.

Excellent move on the DOD MH HQ - now how about a rethink on supporting a campaign? Look at the comments on the Guardian report - you could get in ahead of the curve :)

Agree it's something that is wrong and shouldn't be happening, don't necessarily think it's for mumsnet to take on a campaign

Can I please have the name of the Facebook page again? Can't find it :)
I am so grateful that MN is one of the few places left to discuss this issue without being labelled a transphobe.
In the course of the last year I have gone from trans-ally to deeply concerned and skeptical. All the progress in Trans rights seems to be at the expense of women and it is just not fucking fair. Agree that it is up to Women's sporting groups now to kick up a fuss but I sympathize at how threatening a prospect that actually is in the current climate. Right towards the start of the thread a pp mentioned Jeff gate, can someone explain what that was?

I wonder if we will see transwomen in equestrianism, where men compete against women.

I suspect not.

We could write to Sebastian Coe :-)