should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

[thedevilinmyshoes]

I rarely venture beyond my narrow range of interests on MN these days so I don't know if it happens a lot, or if a similar level of hatred is extended to other groups, but what I saw tonight was sinister (particularly against the current backdrop of a surge in antisemitic crime in UK). I wondered if we had an agreed definition of what constitutes antisemitism or if people feel the issue is covered and handled well enough within the existing guidelines.

"This could go on all day."

Well, I won't be adding to it. Can't be doing with the nudges and winks and if we told you you wouldn't understand, and don't talk to her she's horrid.

Anti semitism, racism and all the other similar hideous manifestations of inhumanity need to have bright spotlights shone on them. It needs to be dragged out into the open and shown up for the viciousness it is. Not this covert hinting.

Purple I didn't see your post. And mine wasn't sneery, it was stating how I saw things when I was at school. Bec was a term only used by Jewish girls about Jewish girls (I should say it was a girls' school) and it was they who were sneery about coming from Edgware, a place that had never been on my radar prior to that. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but it wasn't me who said it at the time. What I am saying is that in my experience Bec is a term only used by Jewish people (and I'm not the only person to have said that on this thread) so it's hard for me to define it as being anti-Semitic. It was pretty snobby for sure.

I agree that anti-Semetism is in the rise in Britain but not on MN. I also agree with a pp with the bile that is regularly slung at the gypsy/traveller community on MN (and often not deleted) is far more prevalent and of concern.

I think this thread is one example of why Mumsnet are not too keen on taats.

What it boils down to, I believe, is that op saw one anti-semitic comment on one thread that was deleted fairly quickly.

It seems a bit of a leap to want to discuss the "casual antisemitism on Mumsnet" off the back of that.

And, what BIWI said.

I too would be interested to see any links to antisemitic posts on MN. I haven't seen any but then I might not realise if I did, I had no idea that "Bec" could be an insult. I know a few Beckys / Becs / Beccas and I have no idea whether they're Jewish or not tbh. So it kind of means "Princess" then? And some might see it as an insult and/or antisemitic, and others might not? Glad that's clear then

There is always a chance that people might use such terms without realising the connotations - a similar example would be a recent thread this week where the OP used "Moron", was told it was disablist, understood the explanation and apologised, MN edited the thread title. Job done.

Adding my voice to those who are saying that being anti-circumcision does not automatically mean being antisemitic, but TBH, I don't think that's what the OP had an issue with, but could be wrong as I got more confused as the thread went on.

What it boils down to, I believe, is that op saw one anti-semitic comment on one thread that was deleted fairly quickly.

Others, including myself have said there have been more than that one comment in the past.

They have been deleted however.

I agree that there are some horrid things said about gypsey/traveller communities. Again the things I have seen have been challenged and deleted.

It isn't a competition of who has the most prejudiced or racist things thrown at them.

None of it should be tolerated full stop.

I too would be interested to see any links to antisemitic posts on MN

How are you going to get links when pp have explained they have been deleted

If they've been challenged and deleted then there isn't an issue as far as the OP goes. She asked if something needed to be done about the rise of antisemitism. It would seem that the answer is that it already is, whether or not incidences are on the rise.

MNHQ do you keep a tally of reasons for deletion, are you able to say whether a particular issue is on the rise?

I suppose my (badly worded) statement should read that I would be interested to see if there was anything that hadn't been deleted, not least because if I am inadvertently using antisemitic language then I would definitely want to know so that I could stop. Not necessarily saying that anything I posted would be pulled up, but purely so I could avoid language that someone else may have used, whether it was deliberate or not.

I read the thread the OP was referring to and is now deleted.

Yes the bris was mentioned, but the comments the OPnis referring to, was the casual use of an insulting term aimed at Jewish women.

Gosh. 30-odd posts before someone other than the OP was kind enough to enlighten us, because she wouldn't.

Is the whole thread like that? I'm not sure I have the energy.

(Yes there is a bit of subtle anti-semitism noticeable on MN from time to time.)

Oh okay, the 'word' finally turns up at post 110. Never heard of it.

I don't find it offensive, but would consider it odd if used by someone who wasn't Jewish.

As for the Bris and Israel threads, what I find remarkable is the vehemence of people's views. Eg - on the ME, which doesn't seem to apply to other conflicts with far worse behaviour on both sides and higher casualties.

When i had my DS's, some people said to me - " Ooh, a boy! I don't envy you doing a bris - I wouldn't. And that's fine.

By contrast if someone writes: "Disgusting - how can you do that? - your sons will hate you for ever! I can never speak to a Jewish or Muslim woman because I am so horrified by the shocking mutilation carried out in the name of God" then I would see a measure of racism in this, as it is so ludicrously over the top.

The argument of this thread seems to have developed into:

1. anti-Semitism is on the rise in general;

2. therefore it must be on the rise on Mumsnet;

3. therefore when looking at a post which isn't anti-Semitic in itself, in deciding how to deal with it the mindset of the poster needs to be decided upon.

4. is a reasonable view, 2) is harmless as an opinion, 3) is a minefield.

The way to handle troublesome posters is to deal with the content of their posts and not to act based on what we think they might be thinking when they post.

I think what I've learnt from this thread is: If someone raises a question about racism/sexism/ageism they have observed on Mumsnet or elsewhere, it is good to respond by one of the below:

1. Telling poster nope, they haven't seen it.
2. Telling poster, they are mistaking it with something else.
3. Telling poster, they are deliberately mistaking it for something else.
4. Telling poster that there are other more concerning types of 'isms'.

Nauticant - the mindset point isn't unreasonable. Posts themselves can't be anti-semitic, but they can be evidence of the racist mindset of the author, which is why starting off by "I'm not a racist, but....." doesn't lend much credence to anyone.

EG - "we can't accept any more refugees in our town" might be acceptable if said by a council's head of housing but less acceptable if on a BNP leaflet.

I am also interested in the accusations of closing debate down which are levelled against zionists. I think , upon examination, you will find it is the opposers of Israel who close debate down as they variously 1) heckle and violently obstruct meetings / debates/ panel discussions held by groups discussing Israel related matters ( aka the KCL incident this week) with the aim of preventing speakers from being heard and closing down the event and 2) refuse to share platforms with Israelis where issues concerning Israel are debated therefore again preventing free and fair debate

I think, even without much of an examination, you will find that critics of Israel very often get called 'antisemite'. Those are the (sadly, rather effective) attempts at shutting down debate that people are talking about.

One of them, anyway.

Hello Cote. Yes but those criticisms rather pale in the light of the real shutting down of debate that goes on in the real - not online world. I'm not aware of any examples of Jews or the Jewish society at universities disturbing , being violent at or preventing Palestinian society meetings from continuing . This is happening with increasing frequency around the country to Jewish and Israel events. This is the real shutting down of debate. Where people become so frightened and intimidated that they dare not hold debates or interviews for fear of real harm coming to them . Then we lose an essential British freedom and one that I cherished as a precious part of the university experience being the freedom to debate any point of view in any setting _

I don't know what a 'Jewish society meeting' but it sounds like a gathering where everyone is on the same side - i.e. Not a debate.

Silencing debate by calling critics 'antisemite' happens often in real life, not just on MN. I haven't read the whole thread but saw one example right here, with a MNer claiming that calling circumcision genital mutilation is antisemitism.

This shuts down real debate and criticism, in the real world, as nobody wants the stigma of being called a racist. It silences politicians, journalists, and others in positions of authority who can influence public opinion and government policy. It has come to the point where it is very very difficult for any public figure to criticize Israel, because they will be called antisemite regardless of how measured and correct their criticism may be.

As a Jewish woman myself, the term referred to is not one i would use myself and is not commonly used by friends and family.
I don't however find it particularly offensive (rightly or wrongly).

I don't feel the Jewish population at large is negatively targeted here on MN.
There are posters who are against circumsicion and posters who are suspicious of Israeli motives vis a vis Gaza etc.
Fair enough, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
Circumcision threads can get nasty with questioning of Jewish parents' love for their children.
Again, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I don't for one minute feel that the above views are anti semite.
A small section of the wider world population practice circumcision, MN popular view is that this "ritual" is wrong and NOT that an entire race is hateful.

That's my tuppence worth.

I think (presume?) sometimes Jewish societies sometimes do hold meetings with a deliberately broad panel in order to ensure proper open - even provocative - debate. But actually, regardless of what debate they are engaging in, it is always unacceptable for them to be attacked, or heckled to the point of not being able to continue. That not only shuts down the immediate conversation (which may or may not have anything to do with Israel), it creates a climate where sticking one's head above the parapet becomes actually quite dangerous.

I don't even mean sticking one's head above the parapet to say something like "I think Israel's military response to Palestine is reasonable and proportionate". I mean something as innocuous as saying "I vehemently dislike Israel's foreign policy, but I defend its right to exist and to defend itself in principle".

The latter is Zionism, and it is intolerable to a vocal minority of the population. The former is not a sentiment I personally agree with, but I don't think it's any more objectionable than eg voting to bomb Syria - and yet it's frequently met with a very different level of outrage.

Is this for real?? Trying to silence posters objecting to genital mitilation by accusing them of racism is pathetic.

@RainbowDashed

If they've been challenged and deleted then there isn't an issue as far as the OP goes. She asked if something needed to be done about the rise of antisemitism. It would seem that the answer is that it already is, whether or not incidences are on the rise.

MNHQ do you keep a tally of reasons for deletion, are you able to say whether a particular issue is on the rise?

I suppose my (badly worded) statement should read that I would be interested to see if there was anything that hadn't been deleted, not least because if I am inadvertently using antisemitic language then I would definitely want to know so that I could stop. Not necessarily saying that anything I posted would be pulled up, but purely so I could avoid language that someone else may have used, whether it was deliberate or not.

We do monitor these things and we haven't noted a rise of antisemitism.
However, we will generally only know if it's reported, so please do flag it to us if you see it. Thanks all.

Is this for real?? Trying to silence posters objecting to genital mitilation by accusing them of racism is pathetic.

That is not what this is about!. no matter how much you want to think it is

FFS, who is silencing who here? How many posters on this thread have said that being opposed to circumcision and/or Israel are manifestations of anti-semitism? Seriously, how many?

How many posters are insisting on minimising antisemitism by pretending that other posters are in fact saying the above? Loads.

I'm really taken aback at how many posters are demonstrating zero interest in listening, and huge interest in putting words in the mouths of others and then telling them that they're talking crap. I said upthread, as others have, that being anti-Israel or anti-circumcision are absolutely not antisemitic per se, but that sometimes threads on these subjects contain posts that make us deeply uncomfortable. Were you not interested in hearing about that, exploring it? No, just in shutting us down by telling us, again and again and again, that nobody here is antisemitic and in fact it is only Zionists who shut down proper debate.

Listen to yourselves.

Christ I don't know what I think anymore.

I'm scared to think anything TBH