should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

[thedevilinmyshoes]

I rarely venture beyond my narrow range of interests on MN these days so I don't know if it happens a lot, or if a similar level of hatred is extended to other groups, but what I saw tonight was sinister (particularly against the current backdrop of a surge in antisemitic crime in UK). I wondered if we had an agreed definition of what constitutes antisemitism or if people feel the issue is covered and handled well enough within the existing guidelines.

I think listening to people who are talking about their experiences of oppression is generally a good idea

I think that sentence is a good idea for anyone - you may not agree with them but listen to them.

I would be interested to know what you think anti Semitism is and how you experience it. I know that attacks on Jewish places of worship, schools and Jewish people increase when tensions are high in Israel.

Maybe you could leave out what a great idea you think it would be to abolish their religion Bert.

Dione- why do I have to pretend that I think religion is a good idea? I don't.

Ok - so I've now read the thread.

Recognising Islamophobia is pretty easy. Muslims do this, think like that, say this etc.

I've seen references to circumision and Israel. And the word "Bec". Not a word I've seen on MN before.

I am sure MN and MNers would be very concerned if there were anti Semitic comments and casual anti Semitism on MN. People would love to report it.

But it's hard to report it and to take issue with an anti Semitic poster if you don't recognise it. I can think of stereotypes for Jewish people - and I hope people would be pulled up for that.

How can we recognise casual anti-Semitism?

The responses to my last comment is typical behaviour of Zionist sympathisers. Laugh, ridicule, cry anti-semetism and shutdown anyone who speaks out against Israel.
Typical behaviour. I've seen it so many times I was expecting it.

So. I want to be able to express my absolute opposition to non medically required male infant circumcision and to the Israeli government policy in Gaza. How can I do that and be sure that I am not going to be considered antisemitic?

Is that question genuine or rhetorical, BR? Because I can certainly take time to respond to it honestly and constructively, but I won't if what you mean is, "Unless and until I will absolutely not get called antisemitic, ever, I'm not going to engage with discussions on antisemitism".

LaGrosseVache, what on earth makes you so sure that all those who are calling you out for your racism are Zionist sympathisers?

I criticised you for antisemitism, you tell me I'm a Zionist. You have no idea of what I think about Israel, do you? So I'm guessing that it's enough that I'm Jewish.

To be honest I doubt that that's relevant either. Conspiracy theorists just like to feel that they are being attacked. It's part of the delusion.

I left this thread early because I felt that things were not going to end well. I'm sad to see things haven't improved and this still clearly isn't a safe space for Jewish women to discuss the anti-semitic behaviour that sometimes crops up on Mumsnet and how we might deal with it better. Instead I see a crowd of people keen to shut things down and insist there isn't a problem, or ask for specific examples and then minimise them or imply that Jews are just too sensitive and there are other more important kinda of racism & bias. Meanwhile, examples of blatant anti-semitic stereotypes ("Zionists control the media/world" etc) appear and are ignored by most people who then continue to say there's not a problem, we are being hysterical etc.

Good for you, Devote, Helmet and others for trying to engage in an adult conversation and educate others on this thread. This conversation reminds me of feminist ones I have had, where "well-meaning" guys just keep continuing to deliberately miss the point and act as if they are not creating a hostile environment for actual understanding and sympathy. Reminds me of a 'debate' on date rape with guys in my campus bar that left me in tears and shaking afterwards. The first step towards understanding is to listen to the other person's point of view and experience. I'm sad to see so few people in this thread doing that. I thought Mumsnet was better than this.

Sorry I can't help, Devora and others, but it just feels a bit too stressful for me at the moment to jump in.

*Devora, sorry, autocorrect strikes again. And good night all.

I get that it's not your cup of tea Bert, but it is good for others. Really, actually good. Many Jews remember when it was all they had and how their religion gave them the strength to survive. It is part of their identity.

Can you not see how talk of your desire to see that abolished is frightening. Particularly against a backdrop of increasing antisemitic violence. And for what? Because you think that the world would be a
better place if only they changed their identity to be more like you.

One of the sillier posts on this thread:

*My sister got her two boys circumcised and she isn't jewish. I don't agree with her decision, does that make me anti semitic?

(I am part German too, that doesn't make me anti semitic either)*

But actually this strawmanism is typical of this thread. Say two ridiculous things, implying that the posters complaining about antisemitism are saying them. Then deny them, so suggesting those posters are ridiculous, and distracting from what they actually are saying.

For the record: nobody said you are antisemitic for not wanting your sister to circumcise her boys, and nobody has said being German makes you antisemitic. Now: do you actually want to engage with the real (and serious) issue?

So. I want to be able to express my absolute opposition to non medically required male infant circumcision and to the Israeli government policy in Gaza. How can I do that and be sure that I am not going to be considered antisemitic?

I would genuinely like to know the answer to that. I do find infant circumcision appalling in non-medically necessary cases (whether religious or not, as I do see it as mutilation) and am horrified by the Israeli govt's policy with respect to Palestinian people. I don't think I am anti-semitic, but if I am I would honestly like to be pulled up on it so I know what would be considered unacceptable by the people who are affected by it (and could then make my own decision as to what kinds of things I would be comfortable saying). I am not white, and completely understand that sometimes things that seem innocuous to white people can still be v troubling to me with respect to racism. So I understand how the people who aren't affected by something perhaps don't see the important bits. I know many Jewish people who are similarly troubled by circumcision and Gaza etc. I honestly would like to understand better what the anti-semitism that Jewish people see consists of. Hope this doesn't sound goady. And I am going to bed so won't see replies immediately.

Actually before I read this thread i really hasn't seen much anti Semitism in MN or any at all really . Saying that I do tend to avoid the Israel threads as they are quite predictable and not really a safe place to air views so maybe I've luckily missed anti Semitism if indeed it has been evident on those threads. This thread has made me realize it's on MN just like anywhere else .

For anyone doubting that anti Semitism in general is on the rise - I grew up in a different time when the streets were safe. In a time when as Jewish children in school we felt no prejudice , opted out of Christian assembly without fear of reprisals or bullying and where we played out all hours with children of all nationalities happy and innocent together as kids . Most of my street's kids knew Jewish people enjoyed chicken soup for dinner as my mum would share it out liberally to my friends and bagels with smoked salmon and cream cheese on Sunday mornings were again all shared and enjoyed. We dressed up for our religious holidays and our multi national neighbours would all wish us happy new year ( in September for Rush hashanah ) and in turn we'd wish them happy festivities when they were celebrating .
Contrast that to now . I no longer allow my son to wear his head covering ( kippa ) for fear of attack - yes attack . My daughter - identifiable as a Jew in a skirt and modest clothing - has been spat on and insulted . My husband was thrown through a plate glass window after calling out some yobs who were hurling abuse at him - again easily identifiable as a Jew one Yom Kippur .

Very recently a Jewish teacher in Marseille was attached with a meat cleaver , innocent Jewish shoppers were myrdered in a kosher shop in Paris and a young 6 yr old girl was myrdered by a terrorist on a motorcycle who calmly got off his bike outside her Jewish school , pulled her head back by her blonde ponytail and shot her in the head.
Then he shot the school rabbi and his young son .

And anti Semitism is not increasing ? Yeah right .

I know it's a different world for me and my family where I won't let my son wear a head covering in the street and our Jewish schools have security guards and practice lockdown procedures in the event of attack

Bertrand
So. I want to be able to express my absolute opposition to non medically required male infant circumcision and to the Israeli government policy in Gaza. How can I do that and be sure that I am not going to be considered antisemitic?

YOU CAN'T. Because people want to hear the worst and they want to apply an easy label. I think the best way to get around it is to only have the conversation with people who know you and understand you are not a racist so will hear what you have to say with an open mind.

I was actually told on another thread that I should be cautious about opposing unstunned animal slaughter on animal welfare grounds because it would make me an "easy bedfellow" with racists and would assist their cause. I assume the same could be said about my opposition to circumcision on non medical grounds. Though, strangely nobody is ever accused of being racist for opposing female FGM as that is now almost entirely viewed as unacceptable in the UK.

TheGoldenApples
I realise that wasn't really directed at me, but I'm not minimising. What would I have to gain from doing that! I think some people say they've not seen any anti Jewish sentiment on MN because they genuinely haven't noticed it!

For example, before reading this thread I had never heard the word Bris or the term Beck or one of the ceremonies discussed. I would have recognised the word 'yid' as derogatory, but I wouldn't have known to which group it applied or what it meant (though I assume it's derived from Yiddish?). So obviously I'd not have been able to identify that racism if I'd seen it. Also, being a white British person, racism is not something I'm likely to be as sensitive to as someone from a minority group. ^ these factors do not mean I'm minimising racism, just that I've genuinely not noticed it on MN (though have seen quite a bit in RL.)

I would agree that the 'I've not seen it so it can't exist" attitude is absurd thugh, and I hope nobody expressed that view.

I do think that due to relative perceptions it's very hard to judge just how much racism there is.... My gut feeling (very personal, clearly) is that I'd be scared right now to be a Muslim person living in the UK outside of the very Islamic areas in big cities, and that I'd feel uncomfortable being of any religion which was obvious due to my appearance.

I just find it all so confusing. I'm going to try to type out my thoughts on this. If I offend anyone due to my ignorance then its not intentional. My viewpoint comes from a non-religious white female and I live in a place where I've never been to school, or knowingly worked with/ been friends with a jew. Synagog is perhaps 20min car journey away.

To me, I'd like to think I could spot anti-semitism if I read it or heard it. Theres the obvious things, open hatred for no real reason. Then theres the hatred for whatever reason they decide, be it "factual" or sterotypical. Then there is the slightly more subtle anti-semitism of the stereotypes, which I think my first encounter with this was in high school history learning about world war two and studying the nazi propoganda of the "large nosed greedy jew". If not for that I'm not sure when I would have first encountered this type of sterotype.

I think some of the belittling, excuses and explaining of anti-semetic accusations is down to people being genuinely ignorant, and mostly because they have not walked in those shoes.

Meanwhile, examples of blatant anti-semitic stereotypes ("Zionists control the media/world" etc) appear and are ignored by most people who then continue to say there's not a problem, we are being hysterical etc.

You see here I genuinely see an uneducated, in my opinion unrealistic and crazy view. Is it hateful though? Is it said in hatred? I'm trying to think how I would feel if someone said "White british pagan (I was a pagan for a time) women secretly control the media/ world etc".. I would just think HA what a loon. And I think thats probably the biggest problem with people feeling like they are being belittled and excuses are being made.. Its that for anyone who has not walked in those shoes its hard to know how it feels.

I think there is a similar theory about race in that white people can never truly know how black oppression feels, because its very hard to imagine how the shoe would feel if on the other foot. I remember being about 6 in primary school, and a black girl in my class called me a "white x animal", I then proceeded to call her a "black x aminal" as young children do. She was very upset and I remember getting detention and being extremely confused as to why I got it and she hadn't, her comment hadn't hurt me "I'm white, so what?" But mine had really hurt her and it took a long time for me to understand why.

I hope I'm making some sense here.. I know what I want to say I'm just not sure I'm getting it across very well.

The responses to my last comment is typical behaviour of Zionist sympathisers. Laugh, ridicule, cry anti-semetism and shutdown anyone who speaks out against Israel.

How do you know my beliefs on Israel?

You don't!

You are the one shutting down debate.

Tell me then, how do I speak out against things that I feel are wrong and that the world's community on large think is wrong without being called anti-semetic? I know Jews (not Zionists) who oppose the occupation. Are they anti-semetic as well? Zionism is a nationalist and political movement that supports the re-establishment of a Jews and a Jewish homeland (wiki). How can a political movement represent the Jewish religion? Not every Jew believes in Zionism. So why is it anti-semetic to state that perhaps Zionists could control the media? They have a political agenda not a religious one.

"Can you not see how talk of your desire to see that abolished is frightening. Particularly against a backdrop of increasing antisemitic violence"

Dione, I think you may have taken a step too far. I am assuming that you did not mean to say that I am in favour of a pogrom............ But in the light of the sensitivities on this thread, I'd be grateful if you would confirm that.

Wow, Cote, ALL Jews agree on Israel?
Why are you saying that when you know its not true?
It's like saying all Muslims support ISIS or all English people love the Royal Family. It's the kind of thing a stupid racist people would say.
You are usually far more careful than that.

LaGross, why, on a thread about anti-semitism, would I want to listen to your thicko views on a Zionist conspiracy? Oh, but you've put 'perhaps' the Zionist control the media now! Very accomodating. And a little helpful quote from Wiki, no less, so we know what you're going on about. Fabulous!

Golden, I agree with you. Posters so keen to deny anti-semitism and to attack. Same posters again and again. It's a curious thing.

"I know Jews (not Zionists) who oppose the occupation. Are they anti-semetic as well? "

Ime Jewish people who criticize Israel are not called "antisemitic" but they are quite often called "self-hating Jew" for the same purposes.

I think there is a big difference between criticising circumcision And making ludicrous and insulting claims about those who practise it. If you believe (wrongly, in my opinion) that circumcision is genital mutilation, then of course you should state this view. If you go on to say that anyone who practises it is a child abuser, that is implicit anti semitism, in the same way as discriminating against pregnant people is sexism.

As for Israel, being highly critical of its actions is not anti Semitic. If, however, you want it destroyed, that, in my opinion, is.

I do think that there are a lot of middle class people who do not believe themselves to be anti Semitic. They will bend over backwards to tell you about their Jewish friends at the same time as criticising everything about Jewish traditions, culture and Israel (often with very little knowledge about them).

(From a secular Jew who grew up in north London, though, it makes me laugh that anyone thinks beck is anti Semitic. It was standard slang for a wealthy ,rather vain and vapid pretty teenage girl. It was also very mild.)

'Becking' was also slang for girls gossiping, back in the day.

"Cote, ALL Jews agree on Israel? "

I didn't say that, at all. I talked about priorities, loyalty, and being on the same side about certain major issues, like safety and security. And that because I was contrasting them with the real opponents in this debate who are regularly silenced with accusations of antisemitism.

I did explain this in many previous posts because some others had a knee-jerk reaction like you.