should we address the casual antisemitism on MN?

[thedevilinmyshoes]

I rarely venture beyond my narrow range of interests on MN these days so I don't know if it happens a lot, or if a similar level of hatred is extended to other groups, but what I saw tonight was sinister (particularly against the current backdrop of a surge in antisemitic crime in UK). I wondered if we had an agreed definition of what constitutes antisemitism or if people feel the issue is covered and handled well enough within the existing guidelines.

and the shape-shifting lizards (or ARE they the Illuminati? I get confused).

On MN in don't recall seeing anti Semitic comments (prior to this thread). I have seen quite a few anti-Islamic ones though.

In RL I have encountered some anti semitism and a LOT of anti Islamic opinion.

I have also seen a lot of people on MN pointing to racism where there is none. I think there is probably more of this than actual racism on MN.....

For example, I was accused of being anti Islamic due to objecting to animal slaughter without stunning (though oddly I wasn't accused of being anti Jewish or anti any other cultures which follow this practice). I've also seen discussions where people were calling anti-semitism in relation to objections of circumcision. I think often people want to see an unreasonable viewpoint when there isn't one!

And "There is a difference between being anti religion- which is fine, and anti religious people, which isn't." As Bertrand said is very true.

I am literally too afraid to make any comments or ask any questions

Don't be afraid. Asking etc is the only way learn

"Even if they were there to debate whether he should wear grey socks on Tuesday or to simply agree with everything he said , that is their fundamental and free right to do so"

I agree. It's their right and they should be able to gather & talk freely.

Don't kid yourself that is the real debate that needs to be had about Israel, though. The other side in the debate is those who sympathize with Palestinians rather than Israel. And those critics are being silenced every day with the accusation of antisemitism, as if criticising the apartheid regime in effect and Israel's gradual theft of their land is the same thing as racism.

devora

People will yell at me...on the internet...maybe with capital letters

humpty

I know...its not just this thread,i write long posts and then delete them

You are both right though, people don't usualy mind when its a genuine question

Still scared...

But - genuine question, and not an attempt to claim it doesn't happen, Cote - where is this silencing of pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel commenters happening?

In person, I honestly haven't heard of aggressive attacks on Palestinian societies at universities etc. And online, seriously, every time I check Facebook I see links to eg Electronic Intifada and similar.

And once again revisiting the "on the same side" thing. You do realise there are a vocal and substantial number of Jews and Israelis who sympathise with the Palestinians, right? Who think that Israel's current foreign policy is indefensible? That's part of why "sides" makes no sense here, and is IME a curiously English (European?) perspective on the Israel/Palestine war - most Israelis and Palestinians ive spoken with about this take a far more nuanced view.

Will lurk and learn

"I'm baffled by the 'same side' thing too. So if people are all inhabitants of the same country they are all ultimately agreeing anyway?"

I'm sorry that sentence turned out to be baffling for some people.

I was obviously not saying that all Jewish people agree about everything - i.e. Not on the same side about everything but on the Israel-Palestinian conflict.

It is perfectly normal of course that they would think of Israel's security and best interests as a priority. What I mean by "the other side" are those who don't - objective parties as well as Palestinians and their sympathisers.

I can guarantee that if someone posts a comment where they express concern at what is happening in Israel - 2 things will happen.

Someone will say the poster is anti-Semitic.
Someone will say the poster is pro terrorism.

Argh! 'Objective' how? Objective as in plagued with colonial guilt about the Balfour declaration? Objective as in keen to have a non-Muslim foothold in the Middle East? Objective in terms of economic trade, migration, political point-scoring at home with various diasporas or other particular interest groups?
(Also, for clarity, are you suggesting two sides - the Zionists vs everyone else - or three sides, Israel/Palestine/objective parties?)

"where is this silencing of pro-Palestinian/anti-Israel commenters happening?"

Wherever a public figure speaks out against Israel's policies of oppression, apartheid, and land theft against Palestinians. They don't even have to be particularly pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel: Here is Netanyahu's spokesperson calling Obama "antisemite", just a few months ago.

"As you have discovered when it is called out the normal reaction is to deny, dismiss and minimise. I have found this thread depressing and chilling."

I agree too.

And as this site probably offers a small representation of the general view in the UK it's very scary if you're Jewish.

There are also some amazingly ignorant and vehement Israel haters, who refuse to hear other opinions and don't understand the link between Jews and Israel (but of course they're not anti-Semitic)

"Argh! 'Objective' how?"

Objective like those who don't have a dog in the race, nor nothing to gain or lose from either side.

And I reiterate again that there is, and ever has been, enormous diversity within Zionism/Israel/the Jewish diaspora about the Israel/Palestine conflict. Likewise amongst Palestinians.

Like the 'Jews for Justice for Palestinians' group lisalisa mentioned on the previous page.

Antisemitic discourse fosters a belief that all Zionism is about an imperial ambition for Israel, and this notion takes hold and lots of otherwise reasonable people begin to buy into it.

WOW
I had never come across anti-Semitism on MN untill I came across this thread! Some shocking statements. Really uneducated posts. Real anti-Semitism.

But seriously, I had never seen it on MN. This thread popped up in Active and I was going to call "Paranoid". But stupidly read it. Now depressed.

People who condemn the actions of Israel may be anti Semitic or they may not. If someone takes issue with the actions of Israel, that does not make it ok to describe them as anti Semitic.

Attacking Jewish people in the UK or anywhere else for the actions of Israel is anti Semitic. I know that anti Semitic attacks in the UK go up when tensions rise in Israel. That is wrong.

I do not agree with the actions of Israel towards the Palestinians. That does not make me anti Semitic or a terrorist sympathiser. There are people on MN (and elsewhere) who do use such words to describe people who disagree with Israel's actions. (Oh - and I also condemn the actions of Hamas. You are expected to say that as well)

The only casual anti-semitism I've really come across in my day to day life has been from some of my football supporting family towards Spurs. So I expected on opening this thread to find references to 'yids' which I don't think I've ever seen on mumsnet.

I don't think it was unreasonable that early posters asked the OP what she was referring to, how are people supposed to know what you are concerned about if you can't give an example? A lot of casual racism/sexism etc is fairly unthinking, using terms without really being aware of context etc. For example we have had threads on using terms like paddywagon, eppy, mong etc before usually leading to most people recognising that there is an issue and saying that they won't use that word/phrase again.

Crazy conspiracy theorists are generally best ignored in my experience. Any reaction at all is likely to lead to engagement that you really really don't want as they aren't rational beliefs.

Katman - it's not rocket science. Some criticism of Israel is expressed in anti Semitic terms - some isn't. Similarly, some criticism of immigration is expressed in racist ways, and some isn't. To avoid being accused of antisemitism it is best to avoid Classic antisemitism tropes, eg suggestions that a secret cabal of Jews, loyal to Israel but not their homelands, is plotting some sort of unprecedented evil......

ophelia

Real anti-Semitism

I've skim read part of this thread. It's sometimes hard to know what "real anti Semitism" is if you're not Jewish. Just like people can't see sexism or racism even though to others, it may be staring them in the eye.

What examples are there that are anti Semitic?

(I'm not saying there isn't anti Semitism. It's just that - as is usual in such debates - what some people as anti - (insert group) - may not be so obvious to others not in that group.

"Some criticism of Israel is expressed in anti Semitic terms - some isn't"

You don't have to express criticism in antisemitism terms to be accused of being an antisemite, though. That's the whole point.

Did Jeremy Corbyn use antisemitism terms? Did Barack Obama? Both were called "antisemite" in the last couple of months.

antisemitism antisemitic terms

Auto-correct strikes again.

samG76

I can assure you that I have never used "classic anti Semitism" when discussing Israel / Palestine. Yet it is guaranteed that some posters will call anyone who opposes Israel anti Semitic and pro terrorist.

It then leads to people saying "I'm not anti -Semite, just concerned with Israel's policies".

Mind you - the same type of argument is used when discussing concerns about Islam, travellers, transwomen etc.

Cote, I agree that there are some crazy arses out there who shriek antisemitism every time someone criticises Israel. Successive Israeli governments have not covered themselves in glory in this matter.

But it is not true that it is impossible to criticise Israel without being bullied into submission by Zionists. Plenty of people seem to manage it. Incidentally, most of my Jewish friends and family are very critical of Israel.

But the fact that this happens does not justify every discussion of antisemitism being hijacked by people shouting about Israel and about how you're not allowed to criticise Israel these days. I can't tell you how many of these discussions I've had in my life, which never started off about Israel but quickly segued into you-can't-call-us-antisemitic-just-because-we-don't-like-Israel.

Lots of people have raised the issue of Islamophobia on this thread. A hugely serious issue and I resent the implication that if you're complaining about antisemitism you can't care about Islamophobia. I believe Muslims should be able to challenge racism on MN without being repeatedly told that being against the niqab, or fundamentalism, or what happened in Cologne on NYE is not Islamophobia.

I think listening to people who are talking about their experiences of oppression is generally a good idea. That doesn't mean necessarily agreeing with them, but listening, understanding and exploring are worthwhile courtesies. I don't see much listening to Jewish people on this thread - just a whole lot of hostility and minimising and defensiveness.

So. I want to be able to express my absolute opposition to non medically required male infant circumcision and to the Israeli government policy in Gaza. How can I do that and be sure that I am not going to be considered antisemitic?

I can assure you that I have never used "classic anti Semitism" when discussing Israel / Palestine. Yet it is guaranteed that some posters will call anyone who opposes Israel anti Semitic and pro terrorist.

Yes, and it is guaranteed that as soon as someone mentions antisemitism (in whatever context, can be nothing to do with Israel or circumcision) someone else will pop up to say It's-not-antisemitic-to-criticise-Israel.

Can't we all just grow up a bit? This thread wasn't about Israel! Posters have made it so, by insisting that antisemitism is only an issue in threads about Israel and circumcision, and therefore that there is no antisemitism happening. It's a perfect minimising loop.