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See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

Would MNHQ consider extending the definition of "misgendering"

229 replies

HermioneWeasley · 02/06/2015 20:30

Hi

I wondered what MNHQ and MNetters thought about extending misgendering to include referring to people as "cis"? There are many of us who find it offensive and reject it. Given that whenever it is used, there always at least one poster asking what it means, it seems unhelpful at best and offensive at worst.

OP posts:
BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2015 18:49

I'm a woman, don't think of myself as cis at all and don't like being called cis.
Our trans-related threads have sometimes gotten very confusing with remembering what to call everyone, so I'm in favour of simplicity if possible.

I've no problem calling someone by their chosen pronoun, including referring to an intact male as "she". Also, no reason a doctor can't say "her" prostate when it comes to health checks and allowing her extra privacy. But a physical impossibility to do cervical smear tests on an mtf trans.

Where we've had our vigorous debates before was about "women-only spaces", which I don't think any areas of Mumsnet are, or should be.

So, imo no reason to distinguish on Mumsnet between those born as women and those who decided later.
Wrt non-virtual loos, changing rooms, refuges etc I'm sure the debate will continue.

As a scientist though: the scientific evidence dies NOT support the idea of a female brain trapped in a male body e.g. mtf biology

msrisotto · 03/06/2015 18:53

No Shanna, the brain does not dictate gender. Have a read of Cordelia Fine's 'Delusions of Gender' if you're interested.

BathtimeFunkster · 03/06/2015 18:59

If you want to define yourself as 'woman', then do. Your history or biology or gender performance is neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as accountant, then do. Your knowledge, qualifications, or experience are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as 14 years old, then do. Your year of birth, biological age, life experience are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as French, then do. Your lack of connection to or knowledge of the country or culture of France are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as gay, then do. Your heterosexual preferences are neither here nor there.

If you want to define yourself as disabled, then do. Your lack of any physical, learning, or mental disability is neither here nor there.

Husbanddoestheironing · 03/06/2015 19:05

As a scientist teaching in HE, can I just say that I object to the misappropriation of the 'cis' and 'trans' terms. It is confusing enough for students to learn biochemical isomerism without adding a whole new layer of meanings!

Husbanddoestheironing · 03/06/2015 19:07

Oh and I agree with bathtime about defining yourself however you choose.

RabbitIssue · 03/06/2015 19:13

Bath time you missed black (or white if you are actually black) because hey what's your actual colour got to do with it??

prepperpig · 03/06/2015 19:20

Wow. I have to say I've not heard of cis before (and I'm a specialist in discrimination issues with a son who at one stage went through some issues in this area). I'm also a woman and most definitely object to being re-labelled a ciswoman.

I agree with the MN stance in general. Can't this be as simple as if anyone uses terms that are overtly offensive and intended to be so then the post gets deleted. There is little point in having a bunch of rules that nobody even knows about unless they happen to click on this thread.

Original poster
HermioneWeasley · 03/06/2015 19:20

Well, I can't stop people declaring themselves to be whatever they want. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it, or redefine established words to suit people.

OP posts:
NinaSharp · 03/06/2015 19:27

A large part of me thinks that as 99% (a complete guess, I know) of spend their life identifying with the gender they were and the body they have at birth, there isn't a huge need for a new term to identify them.

However, the talk of identifying yourself as what you want (French, accountant, disabled - and I do completely agree with that point) made me think, how long have there been the terms hetero and homosexual, straight and gay? Did the term heterosexual come along after the term homosexual? I'm not sure if I'm going to explain this well, but if there used to be an assumption that the majority of people were heterosexual and there was just a term for homosexuality, as if heterosexuality was the "norm", then did there come a later realisation that the situation was less black and white, and thus the term heterosexual was later needed?

I wonder if this applies to trans/cis as well.

However I'm just musing here - this is a very new area to me.

RufusTheReindeer · 03/06/2015 19:44

nina

Ooh ooh!!!

I know this one

Homosexual and heterosexual came at the same time...hetrosexual was used for deviants who had sex purely for pleasure

Grin go me!!!!

It's probably wrong but I read it today Smile

RufusTheReindeer · 03/06/2015 19:45

With members of the opposite sex...as quite obviously homosexuals have sex purely for pleasure as well...

Dammit!! I was on a roll

BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2015 19:48

Well, ithe Spartans were around 400 BC and they were quite accepting about homosexuality, including in the army. Seemed to think gay blokes were tough.
A few years later, there was an entire military troop, the Sacred Band of Thebes, composed of 150 pairs of male lovers.

So, homosexuality has been pretty well known for millenia at least. Greek-ruled regions at least may have been quite tolerant until the killjoy Abrahamic religions - Judaism, Christianity, Islam - took hold in large areas of the world.

BigChocFrenzy · 03/06/2015 19:50

My history lessons were 45 years ago, so apologies if dates are off !

TalkingintheDark · 03/06/2015 23:26

I also find it offensive. I'm a woman, not a ciswoman.

The term woman is already complete and clear.

SunshineBossaNova · 04/06/2015 00:03

I'm similarly not 'cis' anything.

Original poster
HermioneWeasley · 04/06/2015 12:03

For those who are interested. Archery has posted on the "transgendered woman in ladies changing room part 2" thread in chat. She has posted a link to a BBC article about trans language including cis, and a link to how to complain.

OP posts:
BlueKarou · 04/06/2015 12:45

Are you asking MNHQ to censor usage of the prefix 'cis'? Or to class it as misgendering? If so, I'm completely in disagreement.

If I want to call myself a ciswoman in a thread about trans issues then I would most certainly not expect to be told I'm not to use the term, especially as it's a widely accepted term in many other online forums/sites.

I respect any poster's right to not like the term and to request not to be referred to using it, but personally I don't have any problem with it. In fact it seems to me the least offensive way of eloquently defining whether a woman was born female or has transitioned.

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 04/06/2015 19:31

transywansy.wordpress.com/2015/05/19/transwomen-are-women-period-or-not/

Here is an interesting blog from a trans woman about gender identity

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 04/06/2015 19:35

snowflakeespecial.tumblr.com/tagged/gender-critical
And this blogger is always worth a read - gender critical trans woman.

blue it's quite reasonable to ask HQ to delete posts calling people cis if they report it and want it removed.

Original poster
HermioneWeasley · 04/06/2015 19:55

blue yes, if people have said they object to cis and it is used, I think it should be deleted for misgendering

OP posts:
PlentyOfPubeGardens · 04/06/2015 21:23

Can't this be as simple as if anyone uses terms that are overtly offensive and intended to be so then the post gets deleted.

I'd go for this, on the understanding that reports from people who object to being called cis are taken as seriously as those from people who object to being called 'he' when they think of themselves as 'she'.

Those who are happy to be called cis would presumably not report it so it wouldn't be a problem.

BlueKarou · 04/06/2015 22:53

Ok, so you want it on a case by case basis with the offended party having made it clear they don't want to be referred to as such, and then reporting once the term has been repeated?

I can't argue against that. Seems like common courtesy!

BlueKarou · 04/06/2015 22:56

blue it's quite reasonable to ask HQ to delete posts calling people cis if they report it and want it removed.

Ehric my confusion was that I had misunderstood; I thought this thread was calling for a blanket ban on the use of the prefix 'cis', with posts deleted if the poster had used it without knowing the person they were talking about objected to the term. Not if they'd said it; been asked not to say it, and then said it again.

ChuffinAda · 04/06/2015 22:58

Personally I would like a blanket ban

To me it's as offensive as using the n or p words

EhricLovesTheBhrothers · 05/06/2015 05:55

I don't want a blanket ban. For some people the word cis appears to be helpful and they identify with it. What I object to is trans activists or allies insisting I am cisgender and using the word against my wishes. If I see that in here I may report it.